The continental manufacturers are marketing starter sets that are DCC ready. As usual 00 scale lags behind. Minimal isolated sections and true multiple unit working is just scratching the surface. The other thing I like is that most manufacturers provide forward and backwards compatibility so your kit can always be updated unlike Zero 1. Perhaps in ten years time all 00 starter sets will be DCC fitted? Steve
=>The continental manufacturers are marketing starter sets that are DCC ready. =>As usual 00 scale lags behind. =>Minimal isolated sections and true multiple unit working is just scratching =>the surface. The other thing I like is that most manufacturers provide =>forward and backwards compatibility so your kit can always be updated unlike =>Zero 1. =>Perhaps in ten years time all 00 starter sets will be DCC fitted? =>Steve
There are several problems w/ OO:
a) it's a UK-only scale-gauge combination --> inherently small market.
b) it's stilla predominantly toy gauge
c) it's dominated by proprietary, mutually incompatible standards
d) the serious UK modellers have created several mutually incompatible scale standards, each of which is defended fanatically by its adherents
e) the desire among amny UK modellers to utilise out-of-date old trains that have been stored in the attic for 30 years... a desire that prevents a growth of demand for better models
Add to this that there is _no_ technical reason why true HO models to UK prototypes could be built, and it's not surprising that OO "lags behind."
Bit the bullet, chum: go with HO, and within a few years you'll have UK models the equal of any in the world. BTW, if UK mdoels were available in true HO, there would a _much_ larger market for them overseas than there is now. Trust me.
Several manufacturers have tried UK HO and all have failed, the 'base' market in the UK will no more go over to HO than Europe/Us would go over to P4. The user base is too big for that number of people to say "I know lets throw all my existing models away and start again", and the manufacturers look at it and think " well a few have tried and all have failed, I aint going to waste any money doing that. If I really want to start in the UK I'll stick with OO as Heljan have done".
Just my 2p
Jeff
"Wolf Kirchmeir" wrote
That's why Bachmann took to it in such a large way, and apparantly make a significantly higher profit ratio on their UK business than their USA operation.
Sorry Wolf but that's utter rubbish. I suspect there have been far more state of the art UK OO-scale steam outline models produced in the last three years than for the USA HO-scale market in the same time. Whilst there are indeed some people who will want to operate 30+ year old models, I suspect that's also true for the North Amercian market.
There is absolutely no reason as you say; except the typical OO-sacle modeller just does not want to switch.
John.
=>Sorry Wolf but that's utter rubbish. I suspect there have been far more =>state of the art UK OO-scale steam outline models produced in the last three =>years than for the USA HO-scale market in the same time. Whilst there are =>indeed some people who will want to operate 30+ year old models, I suspect =>that's also true for the North Amercian market.
Bachmann? Well, they are nice, but not state of the art IMO. Over here, Bachmann has a reputation for poor quality control; are their UK offerings really that much better?
But clearly you know the changes in the market better than I do.
Back to the original thread: will DCC-ready or DCC-installed locos come to market soon or not, in your opinion?
=>Several manufacturers have tried UK HO and all have failed, the 'base' =>market in the UK will no more go over to HO than Europe/Us would go over to =>P4. The user base is too big for that number of people to say "I know lets =>throw all my existing models away and start again", and the manufacturers =>look at it and think " well a few have tried and all have failed, I aint =>going to waste any money doing that. If I really want to start in the UK =>I'll stick with OO as Heljan have done". =>
=>Just my 2p =>
=>Jeff
I agree the unwillingness to "throw out everything" is a major obstacle, and it's the same unwillingness that keeps far too much old junk in circulation IMO. One of the more common requests in this forum is for help in making that old junk run, another is the plaintive wail that no recently manufactured old junk is available. Good grief!
However, most people are willing to toss old junk, perhaps relegating some of it to the showcase for sentimental reasons. I'm sure a lot of 30 year old Hornby is being replaced by current Bachmann, for example. So starting over with a scale change would not be much more difficult psychologically. The biggest problem would be replacing the buildings, but people do that too, as their skills and self-impsoed standards of quality change.
Here in N America there is a remarkably large market for European HO - people do like furrin stuff, you know. And there are an amazing number of British outline modellers, too. I dabble in it myself -- but I would much, much rather have HO than OO models. The OO models on 16.5mm track just don't look right. Ugh!
IMO, there's an unrealised, unrecognised potential market for British HO outside the UK. Combined with the UK market (and it exists, or could be created - people who are starting a layout could be persuaded to go with HO instead, I think), there may be enough critical mass for the HO to take hold and grow. Technically, it shouldn't be that difficult - if certain parts of the mechanism are designed with a bit of cunning, producing both OO and HO models with most of the mech in common should be feasible. In fact, it shoul be a breeze, since most mech parts are common over many models. The more expensive proposition would be the molds, but their cost has fallen in real terms - hence Bachmann's ability to provide a range of good quality models in a minority scale. Once the molds have been made for one scale, a second set would not be not nearly as expensive as one made from scratch would be. IOW, the incremental cost of making HO models should not be onerous.
BTW, I've investigated P4 and similar efforts; they are for the craftsman, and the range of supplies reflects this. If most UK modellers want to keep
4mm scale, there really should be an effort to make replacement of OO with P4 wheels and bogies dead simple - there's no reason Hornby and Bachmann etc can't build carriages with screwed on bogies, for example, so that a swap is just a few minute's work.
You still need isolated sections for detection and signalling - you do use signalling?
That will be sad!
Playcraft - 1960s. These were pure inaccurate toys. Lima - 1970s. Nice mouldings - absolutely crude mechanically. Presentation was poor. Maerklin - one crude locomotive, intended for German Ma fans to add a British loco to their collections. Fleischmann - WR Diesel loco and SR coaches, nice and still available. Rivarossi - Royal Scot and LMS coaches to an intermediate scale. Mehano/Jouef/Hornby - one modern train.
The sum of all those products doesn't add up to a layout's worth of reasonable British HO!
In that case, you're back to the Playcraft/Lima strategy of aiming at newcomers to the hobby, but hopefully with models at present day standards.
My thought is that there is a big enough market in Europe/USA to justify a quality British HO scale train to be manufactured - perhaps the "Mallard" or "Flying Scotsman" and a suitable rake of coaches. Bachmann are in the right position to do it.
Regards, Greg.P.
=>titans wrote: =>
=>> The continental manufacturers are marketing starter sets that are DCC ready. =>> As usual 00 scale lags behind. =>> Minimal isolated sections =>
=>You still need isolated sections for detection and signalling - you do use =>signalling?
Isolated sections aren't needed for signalling. Signalling can be done with trackside optical detectors - in many ways much more flexible than isolated track sections - and more prototypical, too.
In message , Gregory Procter writes
No you don't. Read the article on the 3rd generation DCC on page 96 of the December Model Railroader
Based on what is happening in the US and Europe, I would say that the majority of locos wil be DCC equipped, in those markets, in 10 years time. Whether that will also spill over to the UK 4mm market I am less certain, but I think that is certainly a possibility ;-)
John Dennis
Screw on or clip on, same effect, most Bachmann screw on, Hornby go for clips. Ultrascale do 'drop in' replacement wheelsets which allow conversion in minutes for a lot of recent models. Keith
Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
Which prototype is that then? Keith
Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
DCC ready locos are on the market now, most recent releases from Bachmann/Hornby have the nmra socket. Keith Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
"Wolf Kirchmeir" wrote
Quality control from all manufacturers leaves something to be desired.
Bachmann have been responsible for kick-starting model railway interest in the UK and whilst their initial offerings were superior to what had gone before, it was only with the introduction of their "Blue Ribband" range (certainly on a par with the best of their USA "Spectrum" brand) that the mechanism quality began to match the body mouldings.
If I have a serious criticism of Bachmann Europe it's in the length of time it takes them to put right models when they develop faults - up to and over three months in some instances, whereas Hornby generally sort out problems within seven days. Customer service back-up is very important in my book and Bachmann fail abysmally in that area.
We've had DCC ready loco's in the UK for a little while now (initially thanks to Bachmann but now also from Hornby), but none with DCC ready installed. I don't see the latter as an issue however, those increasing numbers going along the DCC route seem perfectly capable of plugging in or wiring a decoder.
John.
DCC is just a tool like any other. Installing it on my layout won't help me model my river more effectively, or to get the right blend of greens for the grass, or help me produce the fifty or so skyscrapers I need.
DCC is a wonderful invention, and I welcome the day my wallet can afford it, but for me it would be nothing more than a way of having lights on in my EMUs and I have far more pressing (modelling) concerns at the mo.
Pete
And Heljan's 47s - I expect their Class 35 will have a socket too.
--
***
A lot of the Bachmann Locos have sockets in them.
I don't suppose there's an online version at all?
We in The British 1:87 Scale Society seem to agree with your every sentiment, Wolf. Can I refer you to the web site that I maintain?
Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
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