Color of Smoke Box

Same can be said for freight cars. I spent a couple years getting to know CP Rail 80 & 90' COFC flatcars with some detail. And I swear that no two were identical. Once they got out in the field and did some service and got worked on by maintenance crews, details changed from unit to unit. Now that I'm checking out boxcar doors, seems like they get a lot of 'personality' over the years as well. I think rivet counting has it's place (but not every place). The superiority complexes can be done without. But then, for some people, raining on other people's parade is half the fun.

If ya like rivets, you would have loved CP Rail's 46' COFC flatcars.

Reply to
J Barnstorf
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In the recent past there have been a number of postings _attacking_ rivet counters, but I haven't seen any postings by rivet counters attacking the 'dumb the hobby down' brigade.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

You say that like it is a bad thing, Greg.

Both have their uses. The rivet counters drive the quality of the products we buy and the 'dumb brigade' drive the quantities that are produced. I tend to fall into both categories at different times. which are you?

Reply to
Frank A. Rosenbaum

Salvè

I dont think its a matter of "dumbing down" its a matter of as you yourself have found of finding a "happy medium" If you have the cash you can get Ian Rice or Mike Sharman to build you a model that will shock most rivet counters into silence, and who wouldnt want a model of one of theose amasing Victorian locos with their strange occilating cranks ? I as an invalid pensioner on a very limited budget cannot frankly afford some of the nicer locos or rolling stock on the market, why everyone assumes that everyone has unlimited amounts of cash ready to splurge out on the latest bit of happy plastic beats me! I will save up my öre (I live these days in Sweden) and fork out for a minitrix V36 which is uncannily like an LMS Shunter from the early 30´s which will suit the light railway that I am in the process of gathering bibs and bobs in order to one day complete, at roughly 2mm to the foot I dont have to do much alteration of the model as rivets etc are too small to see at that scale, now a rivet head is smaller than a rail spike so I had a look at one of those which I have which are a mix or pre war(WW2) swedish and german spikes the head of these is 1 1/4" or circa 3cm which at 2mm scale is going to be a bit iffy to reproduce so its always represented at overscale dimensions as are the famous rivets assuming they arent flush mounted ofcourse.... :)even in HO or 3,5 mm to the foot that spike is going to probably be oversized assuming one models a railway that uses such things, as has been pointed out most rivet counters are kill joys be they railway or motorcycleor whatever and they often get it wrong, which is why when one actually meets up with someone that actually knows what he /she is talking about one should buy them an ale and sit down for a history lesson, a while back I was talking to my daughter about just this thing and I pointed out that when I was younger I'd spoken to a very old man who told me about talking to his granfather who was also a very old man at the time, and he remembered as a very small boy the fuss being made in his house at the death of Lord Nelson at Trafalgar, betwen me and Nelson in 1805 were just two men! and that as a 15 year old opened my eyes (I'm 55 now not

85!) that means that in USA terms there are guys alive today who have spoken to people who have spoken to people that were alive at the War of Rebellion (I´m British remember 8^) ) and that means small details , sometimes big ones live still, which brings me back to railways I'd rather hear from the guy who drove an LMS Beyer Garret and listen to him and learn , than from a killjoy (which what we actually mean by rivet counter) who himself has never tried to bend a bit of balsa. If a club has a genuine expert then we should coin an experession that resectfully represents the hard won knowledge that they have rather than the perjorative "Rivetcounter" every club needs access to information and if one guy prefers to research and go with ruler and measure the actual object of his/her interest then more power to their elbow, lets encourage them but let us also bundle the killjoy out of the club door as soon as he satrts getting into his tirade to the detriment of other modellers . Valé Beowulf
Reply to
Beowulf

As I stated before, there were *some* UK locos with lagged smokeboxes. They were in the minority. Most of the locos you're looking at photos of will have flush-rivetted smokeboxes, which is where you're getting confused.

Cast steel? What are you on about? I know of *one* class of US loco that had a cast steel smokebox, and it was a special case. US locos had fabricated smokeboxes, either rivetted or welded.

Then you're mistaken. Lagged smokeboxes were reasonably common on late-build, modern US steam locos.

Asbestos was not the only lagging material used by US steam railroads, nor was it necessarily very thick. Magnesia, either on it's own, or mixed with asbestos, was widely used in the US. It was often applied as a cement or paste, and hence could be made as thick or thin as required. Asbestos was also commonly woven into a blanket - as an example the firebox sides and top on a NSWGR 38 were insulated in this manner, and the blanket was no more than 1 1/2" thick.

I'm not relying on looking at photos. I'm basing my comments on first-hand experience of loco boilermaking, first-hand observation and knowledge of UK and US locos, and information from GA drawings and erecting cards.

Cheers,

Mark.

Reply to
Mark Newton

I consider it to be a bad thing!

When I first started in the hobby, Tri-ang was the main HO producer here. They basically had two mechanisims on which they built models of all sorts of locos. Let's please not go back! =8^[

I'm probably like you, a bit of each at times. For my HO layout I have a list of prototypes I want represented - I will buy the best proprietry model when there's a choice, or the nearest model when there isn't a precise one, _but_ I consider a bad model as a gap filler until a good model hits the market or until I build a good model myself.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

Diseasal finatics?

I'm in the same position.

I'm building in 1:24 scale so my rivets are not much smaller than your loco!

I certainly don't consider myself a "killjoy" - OTOH these bods who rabbit on that we shouldn't count rivets are definitely trying to push their own (lack of) standards on the rest of us!

I recognise that I don't know far more than I actually know about many of the prototypes I model, but I'd rather build the model as best I can rather than wait forever for the original drawings. If I can for example make out rivets on the underframe I know that something is rivetted there. What? well, then I compare the unknown with some other equivalent prototype to figure it out.

Well, I guess you've hit the nail on the head there - I took exception to being called a "killjoy" but I'm definitely a rivet counter. I don't give advice until it's asked for and I recognise my advice might not be perfect. (I do object to being told I'm wrong when I'm not and I object to others giving advice that is patently wrong)

You can learn from everyone - the person who is right can teach you what is right and the person who is wrong teaches you how not to do things. Both lessons are valuable.

Reply to
Greg Procter

Please tell me what sort of casting that smokeboxes were made of please, maybe the use of the word steel is wrong but I am sure that it was metal in general terms, not *one* particular engine

OK Point taken, but there was a big difference in what was incorporated into steam loco's on different roads in the U.S.

Bear in mind that the sides of the firbox was a higher temp than that of the boiler, & extra grade insulation was needed in that region, the issue in this thread, as I understand it pertains to the boiler.smokebox region of the engine. & on this basis the insulation blanket used was a full asbestos blanket. & that is from personal experience, it was also used in the 46 class as well around the HT compartments.

There are, as I have indicated many variables in all of these issues. Asbestos, was untill really recent history used in so many areas that placed many people in potentially life threatening situations. Some areas/countries responded in different ways in different times. A larger proportion of US & UK engines were worked at much higher BP than ours did & therefore needed higher heat shielding than others.

I come back to the point though, that while using photo's may not be the best evidance for or against, it is in many cases the only way that can get some idea these days. I base that on when you see the outside main cone of the smokebox very clear, & then see the jacket on the outside that is oof the same thickness as that used on the boiler, then there really is not the room for lagging in the sense we are talking about.

Unless there is a lipping in the outside diametre of the smokebox to accomodate the lagging.

In regard to the 38's there was no lagging between tha SB jacket & the SB itself

Cheers

Colin Hussey

.
Reply to
a6et

Really. LOL!

And yet you persist in posting utter bullshit on subjects you clearly know very little about. You then make matters worse by getting wound-up and slinging insults when others - who *are* knowledgeable - correct your numerous errors.

You need to get over yourself, Procter - you're not the ultimate and infallible authority you apparently think you are.

Reply to
Mark Newton

Of course the smokeboxes were metal. But they were *fabricated* - rolled up from flat plate and shapes such as angles, etc, and then put together by rivetting or welding. They *weren't* castings.

Lagging methods, like most other aspects of US practice, were the subject of an Master Mechanics/AAR standard. The differences were not great, since most roads adhered to the standard.

Sorry, that's a furphy. The difference in surface temperature between the firebox and barrel is not significant enough to warrant differing grades of lagging. US and UK practice was to use the same material throughout. If you have any evidence that says otherwise, I'd be very interested in seeing it

??? Your comments about the 46 class are irrelevant. What NSW locos do you claim had asbestos blankets around the smokebox?

Yes - what is your point?

Again, a furphy.

As I mentioned before, I'm basing my comments on experience, research of source documents and observation of actual locomotives. If a GA drawing specifies the provision of lagging on the smokebox, and the actual loco has that lagging, then we can get the idea that the smokebox is lagged quite easily. There's no need to base an opinion on dodgy interpretations of photos...

Do you have an example? Because I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

That's only partly true - what are you basing that statement on? In later years, many 38s lacked the lagging, but as delivered it was there on all 38s - that was the express purpose of the smokebox being jacketed in the first place. 3830 had it until it was rebuilt for traffic - I helped remove it. 3820 still has it today. Cheers.

Reply to
Mark Newton

Have you ever considered getting help for your problems Mark? Where did I ask for your insults and smart-arse comments? Where did you get the stupid idea that your comments might be of any value?

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:31:28 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

PKB, mate. PKB.

It happened when you wrote something here on a USENET newsgroup. Did you believe this was private e-mail or something? Were you born yesterday, newbie?

And yours? Well, we get what we pay for I guess.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

So any time anyone posts helpful advice on news groups they can expect to receive abusive responses from Mark and from you - fair enough.

Something to do with the messages of thanks I get from time to time.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:57:13 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

Not at all. When you post a helpful piece of advice, you'll see what happens. Until then, speculate.

Funny that they never get posted here, mate. Only in your imagination.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

My email is in my imagination???

Reply to
Greg Procter

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:28:12 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

Yes. And more of your lies. You can lie to yourself, Greg, but others are harder to convince.

How special is that, Greg? Even I know you lie about your e-mail and all I ever got from your mail box was an attempt to send me a constant barrage of hate, profanity and nonsense. Now, safely blocked for eternity, you may attempt to send me more but but can't. Believe me when I tell you that most here have seen how vitriolic and spiteful you can be. Helpful? That doesn't ever, in a million years, come close to anyone's description of you, mate.

You've turned yourself into a pariah. Don't you hate it when that happens?

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

You're obnoxious Ray.

Reply to
Greg Procter

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:29:28 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

You can lie to yourself, Greg. Others remain harder to convince. You're still a pariah. Look it up.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

You're being pathetic Ray - go find something to do.

Reply to
Greg Procter

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:17:57 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

No problem, Gregg. Just as soon as you stop your lying here.

waiting . . .

waiting . . .

waiting . . .

Sorry. Looks like this is a lifetime career for me. Sigh.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

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