Color of Smoke Box

Main reason is that a smokebox is not lagged. Boilers are insulated, and the insulation is covered with sheet metal. That's called lagging. But smokeboxes are uninsulated, and can reach quite high temperatures, which may destroy paint (especially the older, linseed-oil based paints.) Smokeboxes were often protected with a graphite preparation, which was usually also applied to the firebox. When new, this had a silver-grey sheen, much lighter than the black paint applied to the rest of the engine. The graphite layer would eventually wear off, and the smoke box could get more than a bit rusty. In later years, aluminum paints were used, hence the bright silver smokeboxes and fireboxes of, say, the Southern Pacific.

HTH

'Cause that's the way the North American railways liked to paint them.

-- Merry Christmas to all.

Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

"> Main reason is that a smokebox is not lagged. Boilers are insulated, and

Then why are smoke and fire boxes on UK and other locos painted black?

-- Merry Christmas to all.

Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

While this may have been a "smart" response, it raises a good question. While you are correct that most British loco smoke boxes were black, you fail to mention that most of the rest of the locomotives - the cooler sheet metal covering over the lagging, the cooler sides of the cab, and the cooler walls of the tender - were painted green or red or blue or "improved green" (which most folks thought was brown). This would suggest that the English boiler-cab-tender paints were no more heat resistant than the gloss blacks or greens used in the US.

More interesting, most US smoke boxes were of smaller diameter than the lagged and jacketed sections of the boiler behind them, while most British smoke boxes, particularly on 19th century and early 20th Cent. steam, were of a larger diameter than the lagged boiler sections, but still showed the rivets confirming their nakedness. There was some basic difference in the design, but I have never seen detailed construction drawings of British smoke boxes to understand the difference. If it was just void space, it might have resulted in lower surface temperatures that would better tolerate paint. Or maybe Queen Vicky just required the paints to have that British stiff upper lip and take it. Oops, I'm slipping into smart aleck. Seriously, can you provide some technical insight? Geezer

Really? And your basis for that statement as a sweeping generalisation (as distinct from in some cases) is ... what?

Your attempts at dialog and communication are a bit wanting.

Your attitude sucks.

Nothing you could possibly contribute is worth putting up with your confrontational, insulting attitude.

What is it with so many (but fortunately not all) Ozzians and Kiwis?

"Geezer"

Nope, not smart, just an observation.

None I'm afraid. Which is why I raised the question.

One thing though.

UK engine crews, when the locos came back "on shed" had to open the smokebox door and shovel out a few feet of ash. This was usually the fireman's job. However, on larger sheds it may have been a "cleaner" (Engine wiper - lowest engine service grade in the UK) or a shed labourer (A person not in the engine service grade). North American "hostlers", who did this work for the loco crew. rarely if ever had to open the smokebox door and shovel out any ash build up.

Why?

My feeling is that self cleaning smokeboxes were the norm in North America but somewhat rare in the UK. Hence the poor old fireman's job of shovelling out a foot or more of hot, gritty, filthy ash at the end of a long shift.

-- Merry Christmas to all.

Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

Forgot to mention, the colour of the boiler cladding is immaterial.

You may have well asked about what colour of the inside of the frames were painted (Usually Red) and what colour the insides of the cabs were painted, usually white, or buff or both, with buff on the lower half.

The inside of North American cabs were usually painted green, as if that's important as well.

-- Merry Christmas to all.

Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

Wolf, the sheet metal is called clothing or cladding. Only the insulating material is called lagging.

What is it with so many thin-skinned, thick-skulled Septic Tanks?

Geezer's statement was simply incorrect. In supporting him, you display your own, not inconsiderable ignorance.

Really? The most common colour for UK locos after the late 19th century was basic black.

Smokeboxes of UK-built engines were of very different construction, and attached differently to those of US locos. Give me a day or so, and I'll post links to drawings and photos.

Mate, you could give lessons at sucking...

What is it with so many thin-skinned, thick-skulled Septic Tanks?

Geezer's statement was incorrect. In attacking Eddie, you display your own, not inconsiderable ignorance.

Errrr Caledonian Blue, GreatWestern Green, Midland Red, Southern green, most companies had their own liveries black was usual for goods engines except for the GWR which had Brunswick green as standard for all its interestingly the US Souther Railroad adopted the colour scheme of the English Company as the MD's were friends and often visited each other cross atlantic, As far as Black is concerned there are differing shades of black...........the mind boggles .. Beowulf

Since goods engines outnumbered passenger engines at least 10:1 and on many companies only top rank passenger locos were coloured other than black. And the LMS alone had many more black locos than the entire GW fleet it remains fact that the most common colour was basic black as stated.With the possible exception of the LNWR black was black when freshly painted then an infinite variety of grays and browns as it weathered. Keith

"Errr" yourself. Engines painted colours other than black never made up more than about 15-20% of the combined UK locomotive stock after 1900. And if you care to argue otherwise, that figure came from Andrew Dow, former head of the NRM, not me.

In this context, your statement doesn't warrant a serious response.

The BR Standards all had self-cleaning smokeboxes, patterned after those designed by the LMS. Other UK railways used them to a limited extent, usually on larger and more modern power. These were all closely based on the designs and ratios developed by the American Railway Master Mechanics Association.

The Master Mechanics front-end was widely used by US railroads from 1905 onwards. Prior to that bituminous coal-fired locos has cinder hoppers in the bottom of the smokebox, and cleanout handholes on either side of the smokebox wrapper.

Cheers,

Mark.

Many UK and export locos had the smokeboxes painted with a tarry, heat-resistant paint that contained, among other things, graphite.

"Apexior" was a popular brand, and this company is still in business today.

Or 'jacker' or 'wrapper'. Your mileage may vary.

---john.

Oh Yes It Does! ( panto style...) you said basic black and I feel like nit picking for once! The fact is that black was different for every company, even the black on the same loco varied, ie smoke box and boiler blacks were not the same shade of "Black" so I feel in my nitpicking rivit counting way fully justified in what I wrote! if you'd just written black I'd have accepted that :) but you wrote BASIC black and as far as I know there has never been a shade of black in the UK railway world called basic black. so there yah boo sucks to yoo with lollipops on hah! You were too exact hah! This thread should not at this point be taken seriously......unless........

Beowulf