I cannot speak for modellers of other nationalities, (I'm British if you
havent guessed by now!) but an authority (W:A:Tuplin) wrote that within
the same class of locomotive it was possible for an engine to have a
different rivit pattern, different amount of boiler tubes and so on, and
that further more it didnt make an iota of difference to the locomotive! it
ws the building gang that constructed the loco that more or less decided
where rivits etc where to be placed +/- an inch :) this from a man who did
his apprenticeship on such a gang for the Great Western Railway, now I have
to admit to being a bit pedantic here but frankly I would be inclined to
take his word for it rather than that of a guy who wasnt even born when
certain lococs had been scrapped, melted down dropped encasing high
explosive on Germany melted down again exported and imported as a japanese
motorcycle......tomorrow a frying pan.....It is impossible to recreate
exactly ANY model it will always be a matter of compromise especially seeing
as how our steam locos are driven by electricity (appologies to the Swiss
who mounted pantographs on some steam engines during WW2....) By the way the
same loco that Tulpin spoke about could have its rivits float about during
its working life of some 90 years or turn from being an 0-4-4 to a 4-4-0
(broad guage to "narrow guage" clever folks those GWR people!) so rivit
counting is just simply not worth the bother because they will never never
ever get it right with respect to models, but every club should have
atleast one person who really does know this stuff simply for a handy
reference otherwise ...... I now expect to get buried under a blizzard of
protests.... I'm a railway fundamentalist so I doubt I'll move my postion
Trevithic rules ok?!
I like to build models - I by far prefer models of steam era and
prototypes from say a hundred years ago interest me the most because ...
well, errr, um ... I like them better. I seem to prefer electric power
because that allows me to operate them in a manner which most closely
resembles the way the real ones probably moved.
After building a few 'near enough' I wondered to myself "why not build
them more accurately?" The effort required is little different to
building them near enough.
Can I build them precisely to scale? Hell no! Bits like the cab side
sheets would buckle the first time the model was picked up. Odd hand
rails and boiler fittings would snap off. Have I the space to lay
prototypical curves? Actually, yes, but I figure the layout would lack
operating interest if I restricted myself to that degree, therefore the
axles need more sideplay.
Can I maintain all my track, turnouts etc etc to scale prototype
standards? No, so wheel standards need to be coarser.
However, on the subject of rivets (and bolts, screws, boiler stays etc)
it can be informative to understand why they are where they are so that
I can make a better model. I have built a model from photographs of one
class but not the same loco only to find later that there were detail
differences - who can see both sides of a loco at once? Not me, but it
irritated me that my loco wasn't right.
Someone I know of built a generic model (of a specific class) and later
discovered that the prototype he numbered it as was built for an
exhibition and had flush mounted countersunk rivets!
The NZR L class started as a 2-4-0t from several British builders, got
rebuilt as 4-4-0t with larger drivers and assorted boilers that were
spare at a variety of works, and then had a trailing truck added to
carry an extended coal bunker. In that formation they proved to be quite
useful branch line locos so the NZR built several more, some using
excess spares ... Being on various branchlines scattered widely, minor
repairs were done away from the main works ... I'm definitely going to
need photos of just one specific loco to model one of those, preferably
taken on the same day!
Yes, I count rivets, but I don't neccessarily include them all on my
models and I do know which ones are missing and why.
I'm reminded of one of those jokes in the Railway Modeller circa 1965;
Bissel is saying "so long as the chimney is in front of the cab, who
cares?" Well, I care to the point that a model should look like it's
prototype - if it's a rivetted steel wagon it should have rivets, if
it's a welded prototype it shouldn't. If the axle guards don't have
enough rivets in much the right places they look to me as though they
shoui\ld fall off (which bothers me)
I know I have different standards to (some) others - I can live with
that so long as they don't insist I should change my standards to match
their standards or lack of standards. When they insult me for being
different I reserve the right to respond.
Same can be said for freight cars. I spent a couple years getting to know CP
Rail 80 & 90' COFC flatcars with some detail. And I swear that no two were
identical. Once they got out in the field and did some service and got
worked on by maintenance crews, details changed from unit to unit. Now that
I'm checking out boxcar doors, seems like they get a lot of 'personality'
over the years as well. I think rivet counting has it's place (but not every
place). The superiority complexes can be done without. But then, for some
people, raining on other people's parade is half the fun.
If ya like rivets, you would have loved CP Rail's 46' COFC flatcars.
You say that like it is a bad thing, Greg.
Both have their uses. The rivet counters drive the quality of the products
we buy and the 'dumb brigade' drive the quantities that are produced.
I tend to fall into both categories at different times.
which are you?
Please note my new email address: farosenbaum at comcast dot net.
I consider it to be a bad thing!
When I first started in the hobby, Tri-ang was the main HO producer
here. They basically had two mechanisims on which they built models of
all sorts of locos. Let's please not go back!
I'm probably like you, a bit of each at times.
For my HO layout I have a list of prototypes I want represented - I will
buy the best proprietry model when there's a choice, or the nearest
model when there isn't a precise one, _but_ I consider a bad model as a
gap filler until a good model hits the market or until I build a good
I dont think its a matter of "dumbing down" its a matter of as you yourself
have found of finding a "happy medium" If you have the cash you can get Ian
Rice or Mike Sharman to build you a model that will shock most rivet
counters into silence, and who wouldnt want a model of one of theose
amasing Victorian locos with their strange occilating cranks ? I as an
invalid pensioner on a very limited budget cannot frankly afford some of the
nicer locos or rolling stock on the market, why everyone assumes that
everyone has unlimited amounts of cash ready to splurge out on the latest
bit of happy plastic beats me! I will save up my öre (I live these days in
Sweden) and fork out for a minitrix V36 which is uncannily like an LMS
Shunter from the early 30´s which will suit the light railway that I am in
the process of gathering bibs and bobs in order to one day complete, at
roughly 2mm to the foot I dont have to do much alteration of the model as
rivets etc are too small to see at that scale, now a rivet head is smaller
than a rail spike so I had a look at one of those which I have which are a
mix or pre war(WW2) swedish and german spikes the head of these is 1 1/4" or
circa 3cm which at 2mm scale is going to be a bit iffy to reproduce so its
always represented at overscale dimensions as are the famous rivets assuming
they arent flush mounted ofcourse.... :)even in HO or 3,5 mm to the foot
that spike is going to probably be oversized assuming one models a railway
that uses such things, as has been pointed out most rivet counters are kill
joys be they railway or motorcycleor whatever and they often get it wrong,
which is why when one actually meets up with someone that actually knows
what he /she is talking about one should buy them an ale and sit down for a
history lesson, a while back I was talking to my daughter about just this
thing and I pointed out that when I was younger I'd spoken to a very old man
who told me about talking to his granfather who was also a very old man at
the time, and he remembered as a very small boy the fuss being made in his
house at the death of Lord Nelson at Trafalgar, betwen me and Nelson in 1805
were just two men! and that as a 15 year old opened my eyes (I'm 55 now not
85!) that means that in USA terms there are guys alive today who have spoken
to people who have spoken to people that were alive at the War of Rebellion
(I´m British remember 8^) ) and that means small details , sometimes big
ones live still, which brings me back to railways I'd rather hear from the
guy who drove an LMS Beyer Garret and listen to him and learn , than from a
killjoy (which what we actually mean by rivet counter) who himself has never
tried to bend a bit of balsa. If a club has a genuine expert then we should
coin an experession that resectfully represents the hard won knowledge that
they have rather than the perjorative "Rivetcounter" every club needs
access to information and if one guy prefers to research and go with ruler
and measure the actual object of his/her interest then more power to their
elbow, lets encourage them but let us also bundle the killjoy out of the
club door as soon as he satrts getting into his tirade to the detriment of
other modellers .
I'm building in 1:24 scale so my rivets are not much smaller than your
I certainly don't consider myself a "killjoy" - OTOH these bods who
rabbit on that we shouldn't count rivets are definitely trying to push
their own (lack of) standards on the rest of us!
I recognise that I don't know far more than I actually know about many
of the prototypes I model, but I'd rather build the model as best I can
rather than wait forever for the original drawings. If I can for example
make out rivets on the underframe I know that something is rivetted
there. What? well, then I compare the unknown with some other equivalent
prototype to figure it out.
Well, I guess you've hit the nail on the head there - I took exception
to being called a "killjoy" but I'm definitely a rivet counter. I don't
give advice until it's asked for and I recognise my advice might not be
(I do object to being told I'm wrong when I'm not and I object to others
giving advice that is patently wrong)
You can learn from everyone - the person who is right can teach you what
is right and the person who is wrong teaches you how not to do things.
Both lessons are valuable.
Greg Procter wrote:
> I do object to being told I'm wrong when I'm not ...
And yet you persist in posting utter bullshit on subjects you
clearly know very little about. You then make matters worse by getting
wound-up and slinging insults when others - who *are* knowledgeable -
correct your numerous errors.
You need to get over yourself, Procter - you're not the ultimate and
infallible authority you apparently think you are.
Have you ever considered getting help for your problems Mark?
Where did I ask for your insults and smart-arse comments?
Where did you get the stupid idea that your comments might be of any
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:28:12 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Yes. And more of your lies. You can lie to yourself, Greg, but
others are harder to convince.
How special is that, Greg? Even I know you lie about your e-mail and
all I ever got from your mail box was an attempt to send me a
constant barrage of hate, profanity and nonsense. Now, safely
blocked for eternity, you may attempt to send me more but but can't.
Believe me when I tell you that most here have seen how vitriolic
and spiteful you can be. Helpful? That doesn't ever, in a million
years, come close to anyone's description of you, mate.
You've turned yourself into a pariah. Don't you hate it when that
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