Color of Smoke Box

Salv


Is there a reason for rivet counting sober? Especially now I'm long long past 21 :) Val Beowulf
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Beowulf wrote:

What's all this knocking of rivet counters for? Do you have any particular need to dumb down the entire world or is it just your deepseated feelings of inadequacy? :-)
Regards, Greg.P.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Salv "> Beowulf wrote:

I cannot speak for modellers of other nationalities, (I'm British if you havent guessed by now!) but an authority (W:A:Tuplin) wrote that within the same class of locomotive it was possible for an engine to have a different rivit pattern, different amount of boiler tubes and so on, and that further more it didnt make an iota of difference to the locomotive! it ws the building gang that constructed the loco that more or less decided where rivits etc where to be placed +/- an inch :) this from a man who did his apprenticeship on such a gang for the Great Western Railway, now I have to admit to being a bit pedantic here but frankly I would be inclined to take his word for it rather than that of a guy who wasnt even born when certain lococs had been scrapped, melted down dropped encasing high explosive on Germany melted down again exported and imported as a japanese motorcycle......tomorrow a frying pan.....It is impossible to recreate exactly ANY model it will always be a matter of compromise especially seeing as how our steam locos are driven by electricity (appologies to the Swiss who mounted pantographs on some steam engines during WW2....) By the way the same loco that Tulpin spoke about could have its rivits float about during its working life of some 90 years or turn from being an 0-4-4 to a 4-4-0 (broad guage to "narrow guage" clever folks those GWR people!) so rivit counting is just simply not worth the bother because they will never never ever get it right with respect to models, but every club should have atleast one person who really does know this stuff simply for a handy reference otherwise ...... I now expect to get buried under a blizzard of protests.... I'm a railway fundamentalist so I doubt I'll move my postion Trevithic rules ok?! Val Beowulf
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Beowulf wrote:

I like to build models - I by far prefer models of steam era and prototypes from say a hundred years ago interest me the most because ... well, errr, um ... I like them better. I seem to prefer electric power because that allows me to operate them in a manner which most closely resembles the way the real ones probably moved. After building a few 'near enough' I wondered to myself "why not build them more accurately?" The effort required is little different to building them near enough. Can I build them precisely to scale? Hell no! Bits like the cab side sheets would buckle the first time the model was picked up. Odd hand rails and boiler fittings would snap off. Have I the space to lay prototypical curves? Actually, yes, but I figure the layout would lack operating interest if I restricted myself to that degree, therefore the axles need more sideplay. Can I maintain all my track, turnouts etc etc to scale prototype standards? No, so wheel standards need to be coarser. However, on the subject of rivets (and bolts, screws, boiler stays etc) it can be informative to understand why they are where they are so that I can make a better model. I have built a model from photographs of one class but not the same loco only to find later that there were detail differences - who can see both sides of a loco at once? Not me, but it irritated me that my loco wasn't right. Someone I know of built a generic model (of a specific class) and later discovered that the prototype he numbered it as was built for an exhibition and had flush mounted countersunk rivets! The NZR L class started as a 2-4-0t from several British builders, got rebuilt as 4-4-0t with larger drivers and assorted boilers that were spare at a variety of works, and then had a trailing truck added to carry an extended coal bunker. In that formation they proved to be quite useful branch line locos so the NZR built several more, some using excess spares ... Being on various branchlines scattered widely, minor repairs were done away from the main works ... I'm definitely going to need photos of just one specific loco to model one of those, preferably taken on the same day!
Yes, I count rivets, but I don't neccessarily include them all on my models and I do know which ones are missing and why. I'm reminded of one of those jokes in the Railway Modeller circa 1965; Bissel is saying "so long as the chimney is in front of the cab, who cares?" Well, I care to the point that a model should look like it's prototype - if it's a rivetted steel wagon it should have rivets, if it's a welded prototype it shouldn't. If the axle guards don't have enough rivets in much the right places they look to me as though they shoui\ld fall off (which bothers me)
I know I have different standards to (some) others - I can live with that so long as they don't insist I should change my standards to match their standards or lack of standards. When they insult me for being different I reserve the right to respond.
Regards, Greg.P.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Same can be said for freight cars. I spent a couple years getting to know CP Rail 80 & 90' COFC flatcars with some detail. And I swear that no two were identical. Once they got out in the field and did some service and got worked on by maintenance crews, details changed from unit to unit. Now that I'm checking out boxcar doors, seems like they get a lot of 'personality' over the years as well. I think rivet counting has it's place (but not every place). The superiority complexes can be done without. But then, for some people, raining on other people's parade is half the fun.
If ya like rivets, you would have loved CP Rail's 46' COFC flatcars.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
J Barnstorf wrote:

In the recent past there have been a number of postings _attacking_ rivet counters, but I haven't seen any postings by rivet counters attacking the 'dumb the hobby down' brigade.
Regards, Greg.P.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You say that like it is a bad thing, Greg.
Both have their uses. The rivet counters drive the quality of the products we buy and the 'dumb brigade' drive the quantities that are produced. I tend to fall into both categories at different times. which are you?
--

Frank Rosenbaum
Please note my new email address: farosenbaum at comcast dot net.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Frank A. Rosenbaum" wrote:

I consider it to be a bad thing!
When I first started in the hobby, Tri-ang was the main HO producer here. They basically had two mechanisims on which they built models of all sorts of locos. Let's please not go back! =8^[

I'm probably like you, a bit of each at times. For my HO layout I have a list of prototypes I want represented - I will buy the best proprietry model when there's a choice, or the nearest model when there isn't a precise one, _but_ I consider a bad model as a gap filler until a good model hits the market or until I build a good model myself.
Regards, Greg.P.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Salv

I dont think its a matter of "dumbing down" its a matter of as you yourself have found of finding a "happy medium" If you have the cash you can get Ian Rice or Mike Sharman to build you a model that will shock most rivet counters into silence, and who wouldnt want a model of one of theose amasing Victorian locos with their strange occilating cranks ? I as an invalid pensioner on a very limited budget cannot frankly afford some of the nicer locos or rolling stock on the market, why everyone assumes that everyone has unlimited amounts of cash ready to splurge out on the latest bit of happy plastic beats me! I will save up my re (I live these days in Sweden) and fork out for a minitrix V36 which is uncannily like an LMS Shunter from the early 30s which will suit the light railway that I am in the process of gathering bibs and bobs in order to one day complete, at roughly 2mm to the foot I dont have to do much alteration of the model as rivets etc are too small to see at that scale, now a rivet head is smaller than a rail spike so I had a look at one of those which I have which are a mix or pre war(WW2) swedish and german spikes the head of these is 1 1/4" or circa 3cm which at 2mm scale is going to be a bit iffy to reproduce so its always represented at overscale dimensions as are the famous rivets assuming they arent flush mounted ofcourse.... :)even in HO or 3,5 mm to the foot that spike is going to probably be oversized assuming one models a railway that uses such things, as has been pointed out most rivet counters are kill joys be they railway or motorcycleor whatever and they often get it wrong, which is why when one actually meets up with someone that actually knows what he /she is talking about one should buy them an ale and sit down for a history lesson, a while back I was talking to my daughter about just this thing and I pointed out that when I was younger I'd spoken to a very old man who told me about talking to his granfather who was also a very old man at the time, and he remembered as a very small boy the fuss being made in his house at the death of Lord Nelson at Trafalgar, betwen me and Nelson in 1805 were just two men! and that as a 15 year old opened my eyes (I'm 55 now not 85!) that means that in USA terms there are guys alive today who have spoken to people who have spoken to people that were alive at the War of Rebellion (Im British remember 8^) ) and that means small details , sometimes big ones live still, which brings me back to railways I'd rather hear from the guy who drove an LMS Beyer Garret and listen to him and learn , than from a killjoy (which what we actually mean by rivet counter) who himself has never tried to bend a bit of balsa. If a club has a genuine expert then we should coin an experession that resectfully represents the hard won knowledge that they have rather than the perjorative "Rivetcounter" every club needs access to information and if one guy prefers to research and go with ruler and measure the actual object of his/her interest then more power to their elbow, lets encourage them but let us also bundle the killjoy out of the club door as soon as he satrts getting into his tirade to the detriment of other modellers . Val Beowulf
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Beowulf wrote:

Diseasal finatics?

I'm in the same position.

I'm building in 1:24 scale so my rivets are not much smaller than your loco!

I certainly don't consider myself a "killjoy" - OTOH these bods who rabbit on that we shouldn't count rivets are definitely trying to push their own (lack of) standards on the rest of us!
I recognise that I don't know far more than I actually know about many of the prototypes I model, but I'd rather build the model as best I can rather than wait forever for the original drawings. If I can for example make out rivets on the underframe I know that something is rivetted there. What? well, then I compare the unknown with some other equivalent prototype to figure it out.

Well, I guess you've hit the nail on the head there - I took exception to being called a "killjoy" but I'm definitely a rivet counter. I don't give advice until it's asked for and I recognise my advice might not be perfect. (I do object to being told I'm wrong when I'm not and I object to others giving advice that is patently wrong)

You can learn from everyone - the person who is right can teach you what is right and the person who is wrong teaches you how not to do things. Both lessons are valuable.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Greg Procter wrote:
> I do object to being told I'm wrong when I'm not ...
Really. LOL!
And yet you persist in posting utter bullshit on subjects you clearly know very little about. You then make matters worse by getting wound-up and slinging insults when others - who *are* knowledgeable - correct your numerous errors.
You need to get over yourself, Procter - you're not the ultimate and infallible authority you apparently think you are.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mark Newton wrote:

Have you ever considered getting help for your problems Mark? Where did I ask for your insults and smart-arse comments? Where did you get the stupid idea that your comments might be of any value?
Regards, Greg.P.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:31:28 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

PKB, mate. PKB.

It happened when you wrote something here on a USENET newsgroup. Did you believe this was private e-mail or something? Were you born yesterday, newbie?

And yours? Well, we get what we pay for I guess. -- Ray
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ray Haddad wrote:

So any time anyone posts helpful advice on news groups they can expect to receive abusive responses from Mark and from you - fair enough.

Something to do with the messages of thanks I get from time to time.
Regards, Greg.P.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 09:57:13 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Not at all. When you post a helpful piece of advice, you'll see what happens. Until then, speculate.

Funny that they never get posted here, mate. Only in your imagination. -- Ray
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ray Haddad wrote:

My email is in my imagination???
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:28:12 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Yes. And more of your lies. You can lie to yourself, Greg, but others are harder to convince.
How special is that, Greg? Even I know you lie about your e-mail and all I ever got from your mail box was an attempt to send me a constant barrage of hate, profanity and nonsense. Now, safely blocked for eternity, you may attempt to send me more but but can't. Believe me when I tell you that most here have seen how vitriolic and spiteful you can be. Helpful? That doesn't ever, in a million years, come close to anyone's description of you, mate.
You've turned yourself into a pariah. Don't you hate it when that happens? -- Ray
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ray Haddad wrote:

You're obnoxious Ray.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:29:28 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

You can lie to yourself, Greg. Others remain harder to convince. You're still a pariah. Look it up. -- Ray
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ray Haddad wrote:

You're being pathetic Ray - go find something to do.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.