DCC - why not?

I have never had ay trouble with Atlas, LL, Kato.

David

I don't like the extra push buttons, Led screens, shift functions needed to change loco's using DCC systems. It does not fit in with pre computer era layouts. I use both systems, DCC is only better when you compare it with a poorly designed DC system. Compare it to a properly designed DC system, and your DCC advantages disappear.

Terry Flynn

DC control circuit diagrams

HO scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet

That looks a lot more like what a computer controlled layout should be setup as. The fancy electronics is in the layout, not the loco thus there is no fancy electronics in the loco to mess with. What is even nicer for the DCC people is that it also supports DCC operations.

-- Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?

Gezz! What DCC system were you using? "Select Loco" (1 button), "enter engine number" (2 or 4 buttons), "Enter" (1 button) for an NCE system. If I'm running two trains on my clubs layout there are 37 button pushes to make one round on the main line running DC. Thats 37 per loop for DC vs 13 once for DCC. Ok, occasionaly I have to use the "Recall" button to toggle between trains for a speed adjustment.

DC loses on the button pushing count.

The speed adjustment with a digital readout vs the DC cab dial is a wash.

How many pre 1950 layouts do you run on?

On your 4'x8' oval that's probably true.

Paul

"Weather Or No Go New Haven" is one of many advertising slogans that the New York, New Haven & Hartford RR used back in the day, and is still legibly painted on an ex-NH RR bridge near my home, which is why I use it. Others were "The Key To New England", "The Aristocrat Of New England Transporation", "Train Yourself To Relax", "Center To Center Convenience", etc. They had a whole advertising campaign based on "Go New Haven". Here's a radio jingle from 1962:

I used to put funny quotes or different things in my sig, but it got be too much work. ;-)

Paul A. Cutler III

Yeah, yeah, I know, Terry. Your "properly" designed DC layout would probably cost more than a DCC layout and do less besides. I can run up to 9 trains at a time via throttles (6 trains via wireless) on my point-to-point 25' x 50's layout with a 200' double track mainline with four yards. I do it all with only two 14AWG wires under the mainline with feeders every 9 feet. Time spent under the benchwork: minimal.

Cost:

from tonystrains.com: Digitrax Zephyr = $160

from mouser.com:

from radioshack.com:

Total = $1268

Terry, Please demonstrate, if you can, a "properly designed" DC system that will do everything that my DCC does for under $1300, using only commercially available products (no custom built throttles for example...if you need an advanced degree in electrical engineering to build it, it should not apply as most model RR's are not that advanced you have to admit).

For the record:

Paul A. Cutler III

ah, very kewl... thanks for the education!

Because they can't take the train.

I visit and operate layouts using the NEC system you describe. On the DC club layout I operate on it currently allows me to run 8 trains on the mainlines with no button pushes to get around. The trains are in what the committee calls display mode. Every one else calls it as automatic mode. And the layout wiring is only about half complete. The club layout has track detection and a PLC to do the button pushing. It's not the way I would do things, it's more complex than necessary and cost's more than the way I would do things, but it works well and is reliable because it uses industrial wiring methods.

So DCC looses the button count when compared to my local DC club layout example. On my old manually switched cab control layout it took 2 key switches and 2 plugs to get a train around the mainline. That set the signals as well. Still ahead of your NEC button count.

I disagree, Give me a decent sized dial with a toggle switch for direction any day over a poorly positioned and undersized dial or thumb wheel combined with the direction switch hidden amongst dozens of inconveniently positioned push buttons.

On our local prototype computer controls in locomotives did not appear until much later, closer to the 1980's. I prefer to run steam.

Yes the DC button count advantage exists for the 4'x8' oval as well.

Terry Flynn

DC control circuit diagrams

HO scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet

There is a simple reason that DC will always lose out to DCC and that's voltage on the track. Specs of dust can stop a DC motor on half a volt DC but with DCC there is always 12 volts on the rails and to get that half volt it uses 12 volt spikes. Terry can argue until the cows come home but DCC just operates better. Also I do understand sequential block control with signaling, a friend had it and it cost a bunch. He now is using NCE and scrapped the sequential block control. Also sound is not easy on DC, it exists but has nowhere the control it has with DCC. Those who like DC can keep it and I think that's fine but one fact remains, I know of no person who has converted to DCC, decided they didn't like it and went back to DC. If you know of anyone I would like to talk to them and listen to their reasons.

Paul, I am unaware of any commercial DC radio control system currently available. However your decoder cost is low, not many trains with more than one locomotive on them or spare locomotives for locomotive changes, or yard shunters.

One DC commercial system which will give DCC a run for it's money will be the Oak Tree system

There is no reason why they will not cost the same as your DCC tethered throttles. They charge $150 for 8 blocks. You would need around 16 DC blocks for your layout. So we spend $300 instead to run 9 trains, which is more on paper if you only have 8 DCC locomotives on your layout. If we have 2 locomotives on each train, the DC DCC price difference is gone. Add another DCC locomotive to the layout DCC is starting to loose on cost. Yes this commercial DC system requires a computer and software but it does have in cab signaling, and automatic train control, something your DCC system does not have for this price. Unfourtunately if you look at commercial DC systems beyond a simple controller, we jump to computer control DC so direct comparisons with many commercial DCC systems is not straight forward. The other hardware costs for both systems will be the same.

DC control circuit diagrams

HO scale track and wheel standards

Any scale track standard and wheel spread sheet

What is everyone's favorite brand of DCC, both decoders and all the rest of the stuff. By the way, what is the rest of the stuff called. How much more does it cost to get wireless walkaround throttles?

David Starr

First, I'll even help you out, Terry. There is a DC radio system out there from Aristo-Craft. Secondly, I'll double my decoder cost to 20 locos total @ $16 ea. = $320. The new total would be $1428. Better?

Ok. Let me know when they get radio throttles.

See, the nice thing is that my "tethered" throttles? Yeah, one of them is the Zephyr itself, and the other two are old DC throttle packs I had alying around wired into the Zephyr's jump ports.

Did you kinda forget that whole "wireless throttle" thing?

You also forgot all the wiring needed. Remember, I'm doing my entire layout with only 200' of 14AWG black and red wire. From what it sounds like, each Oak Tree block would have to be run back to the computer...meaning the cost of wiring just went up. And then there's your time. How much is that worth?

Yeah, you also forgot the cost of the software and the cost of a computer. Oops.

Paul A. Cutler III

What does the National Electric Code have to do with any of this?

We were counting button pushes. This is just your personal preference. You apparently have some luddite reaction to buttons.

That was nonresponsive; you were referencing layouts which predated the computer era not the era that the layout models.

I'm happy for you.

Paul

I programmed computers for 45 years. I STILL hate button pushing :-).

PS: The Luddites were right :-).

--=20 It's turtles, all the way down

Especially inasmuch as they were eally opposed not to technology per se, but to the destruction of their culture and family life that the reorganization of work to make things convenient for the machine owners entailed.

The command on the display says push any key. Will the Shift Key do?

-- Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?

Got me beat, I've only been doing it for 36 years.

Which is why I don't like DC, all the DC layouts I've seen (including the one at ACCRS) require LOTS of button pushing and require more of it the more trains you run at one time. We have some single track sections and running just one of 3 trains in the opposite direction it's a continuous series of button pushing (cab control is via blender buttons).

If the luddites don't like buttons they should consider adopting button pushing minimization techniques. If Terry doesn't like buttons thats ok but, trying to justify it with a corner case environmoent is ridiculous. For shows where we just run trains in a circle hour after hour we could be winding them up each go around for all the difference it would make (THAT'S VERY SIMPLE WIRING!!).

Paul