No-one said YOU should, Larry. The OP wants to run three trains on a three loop layout. That's a little different from your situation and preference, isn't it?
Arguing that someone else should buy a bike because you don't need a motorcycle seems a little peculiar.
But SOMETHING is the right solution for each individual.
Maybe the OP will be happy running the 3 trains separately, maybe he won't. If he does anticipate wanting to do more along the lines of realistic operation, then he'd be wise to seriously consider DCC now, rather than later.
All of us who have been in the hobby more than 7 or 8 years cut our teeth on DC. But when DCC came along, many of us gladly chucked it for the freedom offered. Others didn't see the need for it and stayed with DC.
That's fine. To each is own.
But it does get a little tedious to deal with apple/celery arguments. (I never use apples/oranges because they more similarities than differences.)
Thanks to all who have given me insight.. I think I will wire the track into three sections and run off of DC until I get things working as I want. (track layed down entirely etc)... as I have 2 power packs from back in my younger days, though they are starting to have some reliability issues and are sticking... and then once I have everything working, move over to DCC... it would be nice to be able to run 3 trains.. and say have a yard switcher running...
On another side note... power routing frogs, or otherwise with DCC? Which to use, and why?
See the web site noted in my sig. You can use almost anything you want as many have noted, but "DCC Friendly" turnouts either made that way or modified make life a bit easier down the road.
formatting link
Ed
in article snipped-for-privacy@enews2.newsguy.com, Matt at snipped-for-privacy@are.bad.com wrote on 3/1/05 1:16 PM:
I like to put some celery in my apple & raisin salad. It gives it a nice crunch. Not like a Nestle's Crunch, but nice in a different kind of way. I can think of many reasons to use DCC over DC. Running three trains, each one on dedicated trackage is not one of them. Sometimes though, I am surprised at what people want to do. Sometimes.........I think that they do what they do because they don't know about DCC and can't deal with the complexities of wiring a layout for DC block control running multiple trains. Yeah. This whole DC bugaboo runs a lot of people away.
You don't need power routing with DCC because a loco will only respond if it is sent a command by the controller logged on to its address. It isn't like DC where you have to kill power to the track so that you can run another loco down the ladder or something. You point feed all the turnouts and break both rails on both routes on the other side of the frog. These you feed from the same main buss that feeds the turnouts. Use a live frog. I don't mean Rana Pipens, I mean a metal track frog that conducts. CH
I didn't mean to pull your chain Mike. It's just that people who respond with "go DCC" never seem to qualify their answers. I try to do so, although I'm sure I fail now and then.
I'd just like to see qualified responses. I got a big kick out of Sam Posey's latest book and Tony Koester's chagrin at being called "on the fringe" because of his complete emphasis on operation. I guess he thought everyone did it his way :-).
However, when you add in the two terminal yards specified in the original post, and make the likely assumption that each of those three continuous lines is to have access to both yards... Suddenly it becomes a much-more-than-basic wiring job in analog... and still simple in DCC.
Eaither way, you're going to have a learning curve. Either trying to learn to custom-design analog wiring solutions for your layout, or leaning to install and program DCC decoders.
You would probably want that if a number of trains in order going in the same direction and the lead unit stuffs up for what ever reason. At least the red button sort of simulates what happens when there is a signal failure in 1:1
I have had DCC trains run out of control. Some of the cheap decoders had a bug. Poor wiring will also cause trouble, DC or DCC. The problem with using the DCC red button is it stops every train on the command station.
If they were truly independent, and meant to run that way (like "Northlandz"), then I would agree. However, because he mentioned freight yards, I'd have to disagree. What it sounds like to me are a couple yards connected with three loops, which spells Operations to me. As long as it's not the old X-mas tree/Northlandz loop layout, Operations are possible, and so DCC may be desirable. My usual advice is that if you are the sole operator, or if there will be only one train running at one time, than DCC is not needed. However, mulitple operators and multiple trains make DCC an idea that should be examined closely.
Certainly. You can do a lot with analog DC...but only with a lot of work and knowledge. DCC is simple by comparison. I run my 25'x50' double track layout with three yards, two passenger terminals, and 3 engine facilities with only two wires longer than 12". The same cannot be easily said of analog DC.
All that stuff won't do him much good if he can't run it. A first rate control system (either DCC or a good DC analog system) is, IMHO, a must. Going the "cheap" way for power is a sure way to the land of frustration.
He doesn't need to start over for DCC. He doesn't need passing sidings to enjoy all DCC has to offer. Instead of having only one train on each loop, he could have two or more (depending on the size of each loop). If he went with analog with one cab per loop, he'd be unable to do that.
With the Zephyr system, he can use two old power packs as two extra DCC throttles.
Smaller and better? Most definetely. For less money for decoders? Doubtful. It seems that the manufacuters have settled on around $20 MSRP for a low end decoder. It's been over 6 years since the first $20 decoder, and yet there has been no movement towards $10 deocoders since.
Then either they weren't doing it right or your criteria is too strict. I know my home layout has improved dramatically from what it was with analog DC. And my club's old DC layout would have been a blast with DCC (I don't know how many times I wished for a second switcher crew in my yard but was unable to do so with our block control). Sure, it wouldn't have made any difference in that the trains would still be running on the main, but in the things that matter to a yardmaster, it is a must. Parking engines where you want, employing multiple switchers, etc.
This is an example of why, on a big layout, one should still "block" your layout with seperate circuit breakers (which is how my club does it). If someone shorts in the yard, it has no effect on the main, etc.
We also had this problem with DC analog. The familiar refrain then was, "Who's got my train?!?" This was solved on my club's DCC layout by programming all the locos to ignore DC analog mode, BTW.
DCC standards enforce compliance at the railhead. Controllers from different companies do not usually work on another's system. For example, Digitrax contollers will not work on an NCE system, and vice versa. Now Digitrax has made 8 different throttles, and I know how to use all of them. Lenz makes 2 throttles, and NCE makes three (IIRC). Those I don't know about because, as a Digitrax user/owner, why would I have to? Unless you are talking about strangers showing up at someone's layout and trying to figure out about a new-to-them control system. Well, that's the same if it's DC or DCC.
Which is a rather strange point to bring up since all these sounds are now available with DC, too. BTW, not one of the members of our club (and we have 60-odd members, some very odd) have turned off their sound units except to troubleshoot a layout problem. Every single guy who's bought a sound unit (at least 20 guys off the top of my head) all use them when they operate.
I can use stand-in's for power and cars until I can aquire them. I can't do that with a control system too easily and be happy with it.
Paul A. Cutler III
************* Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! :-) Wrong, John. LOL I've seen it happen on my club's old DC analog layout. Two trains had a head on at a block gap. I kid you not. Sure, it was only once, but I saw it happen. We also had rear end collisions, sideswipes, T-bones, and the like all with analog controls. DC can be just as hazardous as DCC to your equipment's well being. And I don't know exactly what you mean by "trendy", but please find me a major manufacturer that does not support DCC in some way. Atlas offers both a system and decoder equipped locos, MRC offers both, Bachmann offers both, etc. Even Overland is going to be offering DCC pre-installed in locos. All the rest at least offer "plug-n-play" DCC compatibility, heck, even Athearn is putting plugs in their old drives. How "trendy" do you want it before you consider it mainstream? Model Railroader and Model Railroad News have a monthly column just for DCC, and Rail Model Craftsman had a I-don't-know-how-many-part epic article on DCC (at least 13, maybe more?). This is way beyond the C/MRI or Dynatrol. DCC is practically everywhere (except in O scale, they have their own systems), and it's not going away anytime soon. What makes you think its merely "trendy"?
Paul A. Cutler III
************* Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
I've never seen these. The rheostat MRC power packs I've seen were j-u-n-k...hardly "quality". The potentiometer controls are the bare minimum, IMHO, especially with today's more sensitive engines. A typical rheostat starts at, what, 1 vdc or so? Whatever it is, it's much too high for modern models.
You know, you kinda remind of one of my fellow club members whose home layout is DC analog. He won't even use Atlas selectors for his block control. Nope, he uses a bunch of large nails in a block of 2"x4", each nail has some wire wrapped around it that goes to the track. His power pack has a couple aligator clip leads to it, and he uses these to power his layout blocks.
Who doesn't? They've only been in use for 25 years or so by Atlas, Roco, Kato, etc.
Sure, and if I had wanted to be an EE, I wouldn't have gone for an ME degree.
I've seen those selectors fail. They are not worth it. Buy some decent toggles for pete's sake, if nothing else.
Paul A. Cutler III
************* Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************
There is not sufficient volume to maintain the necessary cost/profit margin at a price below that yet. If volume increases then competition will reduce prices a bit further. It's a volume thing.
Maybe not. To work on the "jump" ports, a power pack must be "smooth." [I don't know what qualifies; that's the terminology Digitrax uses.] My old MRC 501N, about 25 years old, didn't work worth a damn. The train lurched all over the place.
I'm curious to know what the oldest DC power pack is to work successfully. Anyone?
Programming decoders has it's learning curve, only the instructions are like program manuals, they're written in geek. As more and more features get added as "standard" the complexity of programming will increase, not proportionally, by a factor between two and ten. DCC is NOT without it's learning curve, and it is NOT a perfect solution, Perfect solutions don't exist, only fair compromises.
So, Mike, are you saying that if I convert to DCC my trains will stop running around in circles? Silly me, I thought I'd have to buy more track to achieve that. That DCC must be great stuff!
(In case you hadn't noticed, people have been 'operating' layouts since wa-ay before DCC came on the scene.)
Wow - another plus for DCC. You don't need passing sidings ... Err, so just how does DCC allow trains to pass and cross if you don't have passing sidings?
Oddly enough, I often run three trains simultaneously on the same 'loop' of my DC layout. I must be doing something wrong.
Yes he could - he would simply not be able to control them independently of each other. Depending on what the OP wants to do, this might not be a problem.
I have a DC layout, but someday when have nothing else to spend my train money on (like freight cars and locos) I will convert to DCC.
I have also spent a lot of time running a DCC layout.
In my experience, a lot of DC modellers find DCC technology somwhat befuddling. On the other hand, a lot of DCC proponents appear to be ignorant of what is possible in a well designed DC layout.
Way back in the late 70's I built my own "power pack" (three 1 amp transformers in a metal case) and a bunch of transistor throttles in tethered cases. To my surprise and delight, they are all still working to this very day, and I've only ever had to replace a few fuses.
I doubt that I'm alone here. It is actually very easy (and cheap) to build your own transistor throttle.
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.