Question on several trains on one layout

Maybe I misunderstood Marks remarks; I thought he was pointing out Greybeards "guilt by similarity" argument was bogus. I don't think Mark was saying that DCC has crap for documentation. Greybeard was complaining that his Digital camera was poorly documented as an example of why he doesn't like DCC.

Because he appears to think that anything that isn't interesting to him is not worth doing. Come to think of it, I am the same way when it comes to engineering a DC system for my trains. I did it for years, and I think it is just a horrible thing to have to endure. Crushingly boring for starters, and a waste of operating time to boot. There is nothing new or interesting to learn in that vein, it's all mined out and the ore is low grade anyway. not worth the trouble.

I also bought a card redaer, no problems after that. If youi're going on vacation, buy an extra card otr two -- they are getting quite cheap now.

Most important: If you have a Windows system, do _not_ rely on "My Computer", "My Pictures" and all Micos**t crap. Set up your own folders and subfolders, with suitable names.

I have a folder with the camera name, and every time I download another batch of pictures from the memory card, I create a new subfolder labelled by date. Eventually, I burn the whole folder with its subfolders onto a CD and start over.

HTH&GL [...]

You know better than that. You are the one stirring the pot here.

It's not the cost. I despise doing the design and construction of a stone-age control system, the whole philosophy of which is inferior to the one that I buy ready to go from the Kiwi.

CH

enough voltage or amperage to do that and the frequency is too low.<

It's not that it cleans track ,it's the fact that you don't have a polarity (either + or -) that will attract charged particles of the opposite polarity. Not urban legend, science!

As near as I can figure it means that he thinks we should be vitally interested in electrical engineering or else we're stupid. It's not really a question of stupid, though. The whole electrical thing is a crushing bore to me. I don't give a rat's about messing around with it. I don't care much for engineering my own stone tools and such things as arrowheads and bows either. I prefer to buy pre-made electric tools, and purchase my food at the supermarket. I guess that makes me even more stupid in the eyes of the Luddites. Do I care?

Some people seem to think that if one would only put forth the effort to learn about a subject, that once they understood it they would "see the light", and they would then become interested in it and wish to learn more. Unfortunately, that is bullshit. It doesn't work that way.

CH

You may well label me a "stirrer" but my aim is not to stir for it's own sake, but to cause people to think. I may well be a failure in that cause. :-(

The "basic philosophy" of DCC is that each loco is, and must be, individually driven. That suits a layout where every loco (or MU) is under the control of an individual operator. However, where the aim of the layout is to represent a _railway_, individual control of _every_ loco is a liability.

Regards, Greg.P.

I would have thought that my example has demonstrated that DC systems are not "mined out". I certainly don't think I have reached the final lode of interest in analogue control, in fact my intention is to explore the huge gulf between DC and DCC next.

Regards, Greg.P.

Going on a fishing expedition this morning Greg?

There's nothing "wrong" with what you are doing. There is nothing wrong with wanting to stay with DC/block/cab control. I don't like it or use it any more, but there's nothing wrong with it. It is simply too limited in scope for me when compared to DCC running with North American operating philosophy. It's Flynn making his sweeping generalizatioins again and trying to claim that his way is the best of all, and that DC is superior to DCC in every respect. He's doing exactly what you protested against in an earlier round.

CH

This raises the question of _who_ model railway exhibitions are aimed at - is it the modeller/potential modeller or should we be aiming at "loop the loops", "world speed records" and "large explosions"? IMHO at a reasonable sized exhibition there is room for every taste. I've been involved with operating "roundy-rounds" with cute scenery, ICE/TGV mainlines operating at near scale speeds and small shunting layouts. I've found that operating a shunting layout at scale speeds drives away the harrassed mother with three sticky children to the Thomas layout but the enthusiasts come and stay for longish periods, particularly when the layout is operated from the front and he/she/they is accessable to the viewers. (It's also hard work operating and answering difficult/searching questions)

Regards, Greg.P.

Hey!! Who would I have left to argue with???

Greg.P.

Isn't a Luddite in today's society someone who doesn't want to know how things work?

You want me to join your expedition??? :-)

That _could_ be a damning statement ! :-)

From my occassional reading of Model Railroader, I see the fellows with the BIG layouts make use of staging yards. Either those bits require a separate operator or some degree of automation. That takes you out of your "NAmerican operating philosophy" and into mine!

Sure, but there's enough of you leaping on him without me joining in! :-)

Regards, Greg.P.

in article snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, Paul Newhouse at snipped-for-privacy@pimin.rockhead.com wrote on 3/3/05 9:15 AM:

My response was for the line above by "greybeard," and Mark's response, " Your camera has crap documentation, therefore so must DCC?"

It is true that one does not imply the other, but DCC does have crap documentation.

I don't think the charge is strong enough, but I could be wrong. Has anyone done an actual study (doesn't have to peer reviewed ;-) in a reasonably controlled environment. Or just an experiment with some typical room dust and two track systems side by side? It would be interesting.

But in the absence of a study which demonstrates that the DC charge really does attract enough dirt to make a difference, I'm skeptical. I suspect that the various track cleaning fluids used on either DC or DCC cause more dirt to stick to rails and wheels than the electrical charge.

Ed

in article snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com, Jon Miller at snipped-for-privacy@inow.com wrote on 3/3/05 11:07 AM:

I don't know the answer, but I suspect you're right about the voltage being too low to cause much of any effect.

I suspect that much of the improvement just comes from the higher AVERAGE rail voltage, and it's better ability to 'burn' through minor dirt accumulations.

Dan Mitchell ============

I have a Fuji and the solution is simple. Plug in the USB cable, put the camera in standby and use the pc from there. the camera becomes a "removable media storage" device and is treated like any other hard drive. Mane a directory on one of your regular drives and Move the images from the camera to there. That's it, That's all. Simplicity itself. Now use PhotoShop to crop and manipulate the images. Beats the heck out of going to the drugstore. A useful tip. I have found Fuji is just a bit low resolution in general so set the camera to a fairly high resolution (quality) mode and use PhotoShop to shrink the images. That will make them sharper and better looking. You may not get as many images on a card but, with a spare card, that is no problem and the results are worth it.

cat

Unless your wheels are sparking (shorting out: 15volts*5amps = 75 watts is enough to get hot), that voltage doesn't burn through either.

I think DCC apparently needs less cleaning because even with somewhat dirty track whose resistance is less than infinity, some voltage does get through. Since DCC is always running at about 13 to 15 volts (HO), the reduced voltage is enough. With DC, unless you are running your trains full out, you likely have significantly less voltage, and when it gets reduced due to dirt resistance, or just rail length, the effect on the loco is greater.

But dirty track which causes voltage to drop below whatever threshold a decoder needs (I have no idea what that might be), causes the decoder to stop and reset to zero. Depending on the decoder and its internal capacitor to keep its own settings, that may mean the acceleration rate starts up again (loco effectively stops, then accelerates back up to the chosen speed), or if the small capacitance in the decoder can keep the values set, nothing noticeable except for the light flickering.

Ed

in article snipped-for-privacy@umflint.edu, Daniel A. Mitchell at snipped-for-privacy@umflint.edu wrote on 3/3/05 12:41 PM:

The dirt is somewhat conductive. Higher voltage means more current flow THROUGH the dirt. This causes heating, and may indeed 'burn through' (even if microscopically) the dirt, creating a yet better path for more current flow. Sparks are NOT necessary.

I agree that the difference between 'DC' voltages (perhaps 8 volts average) and DCC (perhaps 15-18 volts, steady) is not great, but it does exist, and MUST cause some improved contact. That is, there is SOME layer of dirt resistance where 15 volts will cause sufficient current flow, and 8 volts will not.

Dan Mitchell ============