Scratch and Bashing help - newbie HO steam nut

I am really curious as to creating all the rivets. Are they available on solderable tape? Can't believe I have to punch each one ! Maintaining
symmetry would take some kind of jig or magic elf in HO.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
David J
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"L.Hamilton Silkitis" wrote:

Successful scratch building is more about building jigs than models - either that or you should chose prototypes that are rivet free and asymetric!
If you're clever enough, the jigs you build will be usable for numerous models.
NWSL in the US builds rivet punches, choppers and etc, but you need money.
Kit bashing is simpler as the rivets should already be there.
Regards, Greg.P.
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Greg,
I'm in Sacramento, California and bashing a Rivarossi cab forward to match 4294 in the museum. The area I'm working on now is the gearing and the tender coupling. Nothing personal against Rivarossi but it stinks.
One of the first books I purchased months ago was the NWSL catalog and well worth the price. I was looking for everything involving gears but didn't see the riveter as I wasn't looking for real rivets just the simulated patterns. I'm now even thinking of a way to make simulated solder-on rivet strips.
My other project is a 4-8-2+2-8-4 Garratt and I have to build the boiler/cab chassis to suspend between the 2 driver units, blind drivers and all the rivets.
Guess I'll just have to make a tool!
Thanks Greg G'day David J

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L.Hamilton Silkitis spake thus:

I think maybe you misunderstand how "rivets" work on models. (Or maybe not.) They aren't little dots that you apply to a surface:[1] they're dimples made in that surface, usually by some kind of stylus, possibly with a die below. I've made them in thin (.005") styrene with a stylus I made out of a nail, with a very small rounded head.
But you already knew this?
[1] Although Bob Hundman, publisher of _Mainline Modeler_ and obsessive detail artist, has written about making *individual rivets* in styrene, shaving them off with a sharp blade, and applying them one by one. Now that's sick!
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It's even worse - the article in question used as examples a guy building styrene masters of boilers for casting in metal...
... in N scale.
<<WEG>>
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

I'm building some rolling stock in G-gauge for light relief and doing just that!
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match
well
see
patterns.
Yes I do! And if I were setting real rivets in a scaled down project, I would probably use a "nail set" to set the rivets. It has a small depression in the tip.
I'm using Copper and Brass (better than average soldering skills) but I need access to the inside for all the good stuff. You know, terminal strip, PC board, fiber optics, etc., so I need the top half removable so yes they will be simulated.
And as you stated below, "that's sick" or he hasn"t anything to do!!! <G>
Will let you know what I come up with.
Thanks David J

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"L.Hamilton Silkitis" wrote:

That must be a later and improved version - the Cab Forward I modified was well below that standard. I fitted two can motors and NWSL gearboxes. From memory, I adjusted the axle bearings using brass shim.
Two separate motors allows the two engine units to work in and out of synch, just like the real thing did. And It gets rid of that confounded pendulum gearing. I seem to remember having to stabilize the front engine unit as well.
The tender coupling? You mean the bar that is apparently designed to keep loco and tender from associating?

Sounds very much like you need one!

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match
I actually have 2. The sacond one I picked up for parts (body and chassis) and it turned out to be cherry like out of the box. Just missing the motor and transition gear boxes. The wheels look like they were never run. So I just swapped the whole weighted inside chassis from #1 to #2.

Just what I was thinking except I was going to keep the 2 transition gear boxes (nice brass gears), remove the interconnect drive shaft and addapt the 2 motors to the gear boxes. And get the original motor out of the cab!
I'm looking for those 2 gear boxes so I can restore #1.

"Stabilize" as in to keep it from wanting to oscillate back and forth?

Yes, Yes!!! There is absolutely no resembelance between the real thing and the model. The whole "Monkey Deck" area is just a bunch of crap thrown in between the 2 units. Like left over Sprue!

well
see
patterns.
boiler/cab
David J
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"L.Hamilton Silkitis" wrote:

There must be lots in other peoples junk boxes.

The one I modified had little stability around the vertical shafts so the whole loco could rock and the engine units could wander.

The designers were Italian.

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the
chassis)
motor
I
gear
the
confounded
Is this what they refer to as "proper quartering, left to right side", tire consintricity aside?

and
in
Ah, left over pasta, Don't get it near steam ! <G> (pun intended)

and
didn't
strips.
the
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"L.Hamilton Silkitis" wrote:

No, the frame units were pivoted around the vertical gearbox shafts and could 'rock' - more precisely the loco could rock above the frames.

Something like that - more specifically, the bits they didn't have data and photos on they made up, and they made up Italian bits. :-)

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Greg Procter wrote:

Good advice. The problem with 'rivet strips' is that prototype rivets are RARELY applied in such fashion. They are NOT usually in single (or even double) rows along a strip. Instead they are usually in staggered rows, and either on 'lap joints' or 'butt joints'. Many are also in strange arrays configured to fit around appliances or curved surfaces. While there are some similarities in many rivet patterns, most are unique. So, any mass produced 'rivet strips'. even several varieties of them, could only hope to even come close to the pattern on any particular prototype. Rivets also come in several sizes and some have special head shapes.
So, if you hope to closely match any prototype, you are stuck with correctly matching it's rivet patterns. This implies special tools and jigs and careful hand work. It's one reason why a nicely made scratchbuilt loco model is to be admired. It's NOT easy to do well, and it takes a LOT of skill, time, and especially patience.
Each of us has to decide what's 'good enough' for our needs. Few, however, would be satisfied with repetitious 'rivet strips' as a substitute for more realistic patterns.
P.S. Prepunched brass 'rivet strips' HAVE been made by a couple manufacturers. There were few applications to which they were appropriate. Those who tried to use them usually were not satisfied with the result. I don't think they are available currently. It's just NOT a good idea.
Dan Mitchell ===========
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Here in the UK where there's probably much more scratch-building than in North America there are a number of books available on various techniques, as well as a lot of handy tools.
Can I recommend two books by the established loco builder and writer Guy Williams (published by Wild Swan Press, Didcot, Oxfordshire, England) - "The 4mm Engine" and "More 4mm Engines". OO Gauge is slightly larger than HO but all the basic information is there and it should help a lot. You should be able to order them locally anyway.
John M Hughes West and Wales Web at http://westwales.co.uk
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L.Hamilton Silkitis spake thus:

Well, you hit on part of the answer yourself: jigs are one way to do it. There are also machines available (like the NWSL (NorthWest Short Line) "Riveter") that handle the repetitive spacing. It can even be done fairly accurately by hand, by using templates and standard drawing techniques.
_Mainline Modeler_ has run many articles on this and related subjects. If you can find a place where you can browse this mag, you'll get lots of information that will make this less mysterious and fearsome.
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Hi David, David here,
I had to make drilling jigs back in the beginning of the printed circuit board day's as an Engineering Technician so I guess old is new again. Drag out all the old tools and just "do it".
I had great hopes that something was already available.
Thanks David J

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L.Hamilton Silkitis spake thus:

Well, whoa just a minute; who said "something" wasn't available?
Just what is it you're trying to do, anyway? Do you know how you want to apply rivets to your model? What material? Give us some more info to work with here.

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Morning David,
Check my answers to Greg's threads for materials and what I'm doing. In reading your info and Bill Kaiser's, you two have given me one hell of an idea.
I think I have come up with a use for the old 24 pin dot matrix printer (don't need the ribbon) and Copper or Brass foil. To the craft store!!! Can't wait to try it out!
Thanks Guys David J

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L.Hamilton Silkitis spake thus:

Well, just be sure to let us know how it turns out, 'k?
By the way, just like to add that I've most recently successfully made rivets--in paper. I'm currently in my "all paper" phase, and added strips of rivets to a cement-plant hopper, made with my aforementioned embossing tool (nail with small rounded tip) in thin notebook paper. They're very fragile, but once glued to the structure and painted, they look pretty damn good.
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I just saw an article in a magazine from within the last month or two on making a rivet simulator device. It may have been in Mainline Modler or Model Railroading, but I don't remember.
You can adapt a drill press for rivet making. Then all you need to make is the punch and die, and not the whole device.
Years ago I read about pecking out a row of periods on a typewriter to sumulate rivets in paper. They'd be pretty big rivets by today's standards. It'd probably be easier to find a rivet machine than a typewriter these days, too.
My most recent riveting was with bits of copper wire headed over with a rivet set. There were there to really hold things together.
--
Bill Kaiser
snipped-for-privacy@mtholyoke.edu
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