Using automotive finishes

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Back in the 1960's two prominent model railroad custom painters, John Gascoyne and Don Hillerich (Terry Industries) began painting brass model trains with auto lacquers. Then the lacquers were nitrocelulose based and the pignents were very fine and the finish was sperctsacularly smooth.

I learned a few things from these two experts and began painting models with auto lacquer. Brass models were no problkem, but plastics were a different story. You could paint a Rivarossi passenger car, no problem, but an Atherarn diesel crazed and crackled instantly.

Why? Well styrene, ist the same everywhere. different formulas used to make styrene give it different properties.

Floquil made, and may still make, a product called "barrier". This is painted over the plastic models and the auto finish can be applied over that.

Don't believe that the new Acrylic auto lacquers are too heavy. It simply isn't true. Loads of custom painters use Acrylic auto lacquers all the time. What does NOT work is auto enamels. They are heavy and hard to work with.

On 28 Nov 2003 01:48:39 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Hzakas) shared this with the world:

How coarse is the metalflake in the automotive paint, compared to something like Testors metallics?

Can you lay down a thin enough coat of paint to be opaque without obscuring the details?

Can you buy auto paint in small enough quantities to be economical? (is it only available in gallon sizes for 200$/gallon? not good if you only need a couple of ounces to do every car in your fleet)

That's the only concerns that come to my mind immediately. I haven't experimented with many paints, so I don't have the answers, just questions.

Kent

I see a few potential problems:

1) Automotive finishes are usually laquer, and can be destructive to unprotected plastic. Use LIGHTLY and test on scrap first! I've seen heavy applications go through light protective coats...

2) Thickness of coat is not a problem on automobiles, and many finishes are at least semi-transparent. You may need an undercoat of a specific color, or several coats of the desired color to get the results you're after... and that may obscure detail on the model. You may also need to use a clear-coat and/or wax to get the effect you're after.

3) Metal flake automotive colors use flakes that scale out to dinner-plate size for models! Your final effect may look more like a mosaic than metal flake!

One thing that might work... check the OTHER side of the aisle at your hobby shop for the automotive colors. I don't know if they'll have the color you're looking for, but it's a place to start.

My locomotives are all custom painted... using a French Blue spray can from the Auto side of the hobby store. ;)

All that said... give it a shot! You'd have a unique color scheme!

I have used DuPont dark gray auto primer as my primary "black" paint for years. As others have commented, the minimum container is a quart, but I poured it out into small (old Floquil) carefully sealed bottles when fresh and I am still having good results with the paint 15 years later. I love the warm gray-black color for steam locos. I find the paint to be much more forgiving than Floquil or Scalecoat and have never had problems of uneven finish, orange peeling, etc. in a variety of temperature and humidity conditions. While it comes out as a flay finish, it is usually so smooth that I can apply decals without needing a gloss overspray (tho I do need a few applications of Solvaset).

I do wonder if gloss auto finishes are as forgiving, and whether 1 qt. quantities would ever be used. Auto touch-up paints are also available, but I believe these are not the same formulas as the DuPont professional finishes. I find my DuPont primer tend to dry so quickly that I can not apply it by brush, and that I have to add retarder when spraying. This is not the case with the typical NAPA or Auto Zone touch-up paints. GQ

Not so much on the railroad, but when I was building 1:25 plastic car models virtually every one was done with "Duplicolor" automotive touch up paint in spray cans and I never had a problem.

I did do one HO locomotive once, an old TM Alco FA-1 when I found a Chevy truck color that was the perfect match for Soo Line Maroon. Came out great.

Don

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Been using auto lacquers since the early 70s when I met Don Hillerich of Terry Industries. It's great for restoring old Lionel items too. Bring a sample piece such as underside where paint has not faded or gotten dirty to local auto paint store and they match it perfectly in lacquers. I get it in pint and quart sizes. Price depends on base color with black the least exp[ensive, perhaps $20 a quart which, when thinned properl;y with a quality thinner and retarder, will yield up to a gallon of useable finish material. Compare that to the cost of a 2 oz. bottle of paint in a hobby shop.

Of course, with lacquers I use an exhaust system and a OSHA approved respirator.

YMMV.

Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 1735; TCA # HR-78-12540; ARHS # 2421 Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

You can buy them in Quart sizes and maybe even pints. I remember a discussion somewhere once where guys who build automobile models use regular car paints to paint their models. They even use the same techniques (5-9 coats of primer, wet sand between coats, 5-10 coats of color, 10-15 coats of clear, etc.).

Kennedy

Don't bother using auto paints. They are ground way too coarse and the carrier stuff, usually a urathane is way too thick for covering a model well without filling in detail severely. O scale models could be painted 50 years ago by the paints then because the detail level wasn't that great and the lacquer paints available then in black did have a much finer pigment than is available today.

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works evevery time it is tried!

I use Canadian Tire GM bergundy as the colour for all my passenger cars.

-- Cheers Roger T.

of the Great Eastern Railway

. Only on the Internet could a totally uninformed person begin to spew such nonsense.

Dieter, I use both products regularly. I paint my railroad items with Floquil and custom Harley-Davidsons with automotive finishes. I don't find model paint uses finer pigments than automotive varities. In fact, pigments are interchangable and mnay paint companies buy pigments form companies like Bayer and CibaGiegy etc. I have used automotive acrylic lacquer on model cars where I want shine and custom colors like pearl and candy. but I never use it on railroad models. I do however use automotive lacquer thinner with all my Floquil paints. I never use barrier coats on any plastic. BUT BEWARE that lacquer thinner can craze plastic and styrene if applied in heavy coats. To prepare plastic I usually paint it with Floquil Earth from a spay can. Light coats are best for plastic. It makes a great easy to cover primer for later color coats applied by an air brush or plain ol brush. On brass locomotives, I never use primer. I airbrush them with Floquil paints. You can view a bunch of my work here

you look around the photo albums, you will see lots of plastic and brass models, even the track painted using this method. Doug

I also like "Dark Gray Auto Primer" for steam locomotives, freight car undersides, tar and canvas passenger car roofs, hoppers and gons, and anywhere a flat black might be used. It looks better under typical layout lighting than the real black blacks. I use spray cans from the auto parts store. The stuff settles well, dries dead flat, and takes decals well. One over coat of Dull Cote blends in the decals and makes their edges disappear.

David J. Starr

Well, based upon insight I received from Tom Hillerich [Terry Industries] back in the late 60s and very early 70s, I switched to auto lacquer in my custom painting business [Witchcraft Models], no longer active. There was never a thickness problem with the use of auto lacquer and I painted over 400 H0 plus a few 0 scale locomotives, 98% steam, some for importers. If one has a thickness problem, then it was one of the users problem in preparation with a proper thinner [ cost was about $20 a gallon, DuPont 3661] and retarders and air spray pressure. I used a Paasche production type of air brush [AUF] that required a pressure of not above 10 - 12 psi.

I agree if one lacks the capability to use lacquers properly. Lacking that talent, them stick to what does the job well for you. I never had a complaint from a customer about details being obscure.

Check out some of the 60s and early 70s PFM catalogs for Arlington Industries "lacquer" painted models.

Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 1735; TCA # HR-78-12540; ARHS # 2421 Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

I once saw some HO scale ATSF brass steamers at a local meet that had been professionally custom painted with automotive products, and they were absolutely beautiful. The finishes were smooth as can be, and thin enough to not obscure a single detail.

IMHO, they were some of the best paint jobs I've seen on brass steam, period.