Berger hydraulic starters?

the second item (1947) shows the starter in question. There's a hydraulic pressure pipe to either end, & no return pipe, so my guess is that there's a hydraulic cylinder and a 'spring cylinder' each side with some sort of fancy linkage to the ratchet drive in the centre.

In this particular case, hydraulic pressure comes from a spring reservoir & is pumped up by hand to about 3000 psi. There's 8 or 10 minutes' pumping to get it up to pressure, when it fails to work the pressure, and all that pumping, seems to be 'lost' instantaneously with no drive taking place. It can be very frustrating :-( Sadly someone removed the hand start gear from the engine years ago.

Cheers Tim. Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

Hello Tim , I did some work on two sets of these Bryce Handraulic Starters- they are on a pair of 6cyl. Ford Marlins in an ex-RNLI lifeboat. One worked ok , after plenty of hard work pumping up the pressure , the other didn't work at first. You are right, the clearance on the dog clutch is critical, in this case the positioning etc on the shaft was affected by an auxiliary crankshaft pulley that ran the cooling pump and dynamo, IIRC, the whole had become worn and it was necessary to put washers in various places to achieve the right clearances. Also the parts of the dog clutch ( teeth etc ) need to be clean , not gunged up with the usual engine filth. I got this starter to work most of the time, luckily, these engines have electric starters as well :-) I found you could get about 3 or 4 starts from one good pumping up . Have you got a pressure indicator on the hydraulic system pump ?This would give some indication of when you need to pump it again. I think the idea of this system was that you could start the engines in an emergency , even with the engine room flooded ( the air intakes are high up and the hand pumps are remote in the cockpit/wheelhouse. Somewhere , I have a manual for this system. It might take a while to find it though! Robert

I've today had an offer of the loan of a manual for a later UK made Bryce-Berger starter, I don't know how much they changed the motors if at all. This is an early (1948) French-made Berger unit. Hopefully that'll do the trick, if not I'll come knocking on your door! He says, as you do, he gets 2 or 3 starts from one chargeing of the accumulator, we've only ever had one start with this unit. There could be various reasons for that, of course, maybe the accumulator capacity is different or it may be to do with the very large flywheel inertia on the Crossley, or it may just be that it's not working as it should be. Many thanks

Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

Tim I have the manual for the version of this starter used on a Rolls Royce C6N I could scan the pages if you like. The only dimension it gives is "Clearance between the flange face and the peak of the dog teeth should be 2.5mm + or minus0.2mm" Hope this is some help Bob McDermaid

Many thanks for the offer.

I've now received faxed copies of the relevant pages, which also give that figure. What they don't tell you is the position of the teeth on the engine side. The drawing *implies* that the tips should be flush with the mounting flange but it doesn't say so anywhere. Presume that comes under 'installation' instructions rather than 'maintenance'. One reason why I think this one is misbehaving is that the mounting flange, on a fabricated steel bracket, isn't square to the shaft. The bracket was packed up with shims before, but after all the other work & disturbance there isn't room to pack it up, so I'll be setting it up in the milling machine to square it off. This starter is the equivalent to the Bryce B50, there were/are two sizes using the same accumulator arrangement. The smaller (B35?) will give 2 or 3 starts from one charge, but this size has to be recharged every time. The accumulator uses a nitrogen charged 'spring', I had visions of some mighty coil springs in there!

Thanks again

Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

On that basis Tim, does the Accumulator need recharging as they do and can reduce in pressure or is the diaphram inside split.

Martin P

The starter is certainly capable of starting the engine when everything is *right*, whether it's working as well as it could I have no way of knowing. I would have thought that if the diaphragm were split it wouldn't hold pressure at all? I'm pretty sure the current problem is mainly to do with the dog clutch (ratchet) not engaging properly, there are some worn teeth and, as I said, the mounting bracket isn't square to the shaft. Before stripping it all down, and before I had much of an idea how the starter worked, it was a bit fussy about the crankshaft position before starting. Someone who worked on it before me tried to convince me that this was a function of its design, I now see that it's a function of where the worn clutch teeth lay!

I haven't yet got my head round how the nitrogen accumulator is sealed, it's described as a 'free piston' arrangement, 'sealed for life', but I only have faxed drawings to interpret. When pumping it up, the pressure gauge goes very rapidly from zero to, AFAIR, 3000 psi which presumably corresponds to the 'at rest' pressure in the reservoir. Much pumping will then bring it to the maximum of just over 4000 psi. (It's not in front of me, the pressures might be

2000 and 3000)

Cheers Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

Tim, So your accumulator looks like a hydraulic cylinder, rather than a gas bottle with a rounded end? And has a piston rather than a diaphragm, but sounds like it is working ok and still has its full precharge pressure. When you start to pump the piston is fully stroked out and initially the oil has nowhere to go untill you reach the gas precharge pressure then it starts to compress the gas, so if you pump slowly you can find the precharge pressure, and maybe confirm it is correct, but my guess is if it starts to leak it will lose the lot. Of course you could always fit a bigger accumulator and with more pumping get a few more shots at starting!

Kev.

Tim Leech wrote:

I've now identified what I see as the main problem, apart from the alignment issue, the 'pinion' in the motor, which carries one half of the dog clutch, has (a) worn teeth, and (b) there are two angled slots in the periphery in which spring-loaded balls engage, which serve to push the clutch into engagement, these slots were worn such that the balls could break out of the sides of the slots too easily. The engine side of the dog clutch is also worn.

I've tracked down a source for these parts, the really good news is that they are available off the shelf, made now by CAV!

The really bad news is that the pinion is over 500 quid plus vat & delivery, the engine side is over 200 + + !. Oh Dear! :-(

I've decided to see what I can do to resuscitate the existing parts, starting with the ball bearing slots. I've built the worn edges up with Stellite TIG filler, turned the surplus off the outside (no prob with a carbide tip) and cleaned out the slot itself with a die grinder. I'm very pleased with the results, wondering now whether to have a go at the teeth tips. These would need careful setting up with an indexer in the tool grinder after building up, I reckon I can do it but I just wonder how strong the teeth will be. The existing body is some fairly tough, heat treated steel, too hard to file but machineable with carbide. I know this isn't an engineering forum, but there may be someone here who reckons they know enough to comment?

Pic of the pinion at

I chose the view badly, you can just see one of the angled slots at the bottom. it's around 90mm OD, 36 teeth.

Cheers Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

Tim, Without knowing how this all fits together as a whole can you just get away with milling or grinding the original teeth back to get a second life?

Seems a simpler solution to me but not knowing the mesh / clearances etc............................................

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-

John

I've thought about that one, there are a few potential problems. One is it's an acute angle at the root of the teeth, so that'll mean dressing up a grinding wheel or finding/grinding a special milling cutter to do the job, & I'm not sure whether HSS will touch it. OK, if I build up the teeth I'll still need to dress up a grinding wheel to clean them up. My original idea was to do just what you suggest with some careful filing. Not a chance, a file won't go near it. The real snag is likely to be that the teeth will be 1mm or so further back on the body, & that *might* lead to problems with the meshing etc. It might not, I'm not sure but it's quite a bit of work to do to find that the owners have to go out & spend nearly a grand on new bits after all! Thinking about it some more, I suppose I could shim up the engine side dog by an amount similar to anything I take off the pinion teeth. Can't see why that wouldn't work. My worry over building the teeth up is that the welding might make them brittle behind the weld as it's obviously steel with a reasonably high carbon content.

Thanks Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

The question I would as my self, after building up and turning down the ball groves is dose it engage better now than before ? if it dose I personally would not touch the sprockets.

Most gears/sprockets are usually made from blanks and machined or broached then case hardened by several methods. To process anneal you need to heat to cherry red then quench in oil or water. Then to case harden a gain heat to cherry red and dip into graphite powered

Or maybe have a scavenge around a scarp/salvage yard for a similar and possibly longer sprocket and then turning down the free, none engaging end to get it to the right length.

Sintered Carbide tool tip will cut most types of ,materials from plastics to hard steel at a multitude of speeds with the added benefit of polishing at the same time as cutting.

I've had a look at the photo and this type of gear/sprocket is difficult to draw never mind manufacture the dividing head would need to be a driven head and calculations will be needed to obtain the correct rotation/length ratios. If your going to do it that way I would advice experimenting on a few bits of scrap first.

| >

| >>

| >>I've decided to see what I can do to resuscitate the existing parts, | >>starting with the ball bearing slots. I've built the worn edges up | >>with Stellite TIG filler, turned the surplus off the outside (no prob | >>with a carbide tip) and cleaned out the slot itself with a die | >>grinder. I'm very pleased with the results, wondering now whether to | >>have a go at the teeth tips. These would need careful setting up with | >>an indexer in the tool grinder after building up, I reckon I can do it | >>but I just wonder how strong the teeth will be. The existing body is | >>some fairly tough, heat treated steel, too hard to file but | >>machineable with carbide. | >>I know this isn't an engineering forum, but there may be someone here | >>who reckons they know enough to comment? | >>

| >>Pic of the pinion at | >>

| >>

| >>I chose the view badly, you can just see one of the angled slots at | >>the bottom. | >>it's around 90mm OD, 36 teeth. | >>

| >>Cheers | >>Tim | >

| >Tim, | >Without knowing how this all fits together as a whole can you just get | >away with milling or grinding the original teeth back to get a second | >life? | >

| >Seems a simpler solution to me but not knowing the mesh / clearances | >etc............................................ | | John | | I've thought about that one, there are a few potential problems. | One is it's an acute angle at the root of the teeth, so that'll mean | dressing up a grinding wheel or finding/grinding a special milling | cutter to do the job, & I'm not sure whether HSS will touch it. OK, if | I build up the teeth I'll still need to dress up a grinding wheel to | clean them up. My original idea was to do just what you suggest with | some careful filing. Not a chance, a file won't go near it. | The real snag is likely to be that the teeth will be 1mm or so further | back on the body, & that *might* lead to problems with the meshing | etc. It might not, I'm not sure but it's quite a bit of work to do to | find that the owners have to go out & spend nearly a grand on new bits | after all! | Thinking about it some more, I suppose I could shim up the engine side | dog by an amount similar to anything I take off the pinion teeth. | Can't see why that wouldn't work. | My worry over building the teeth up is that the welding might make | them brittle behind the weld as it's obviously steel with a reasonably | high carbon content. | | Thanks | Tim | | Dutton Dry-Dock | Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs | Vintage diesel engine service

Tim said

I suppose I could shim up the engine side dog by an amount similar to anything I take off the pinion teeth.Can't see why that wouldn't work. My worry over building the teeth up is that the welding might make them brittle behind the weld as it's obviously steel with a reasonably high carbon content.

That's exactly where I'd got to in my head. From the photo, it appears that there is enough meat left on the teeth to make up a spacing shim to bring it out a little further. It can't be that simple or you'd have done it by now.

If it was me, I'd not want to get an old, heat treated, high carbon steel gear hot by welding etc. & if you've got the wheel to touch it, try regrinding the teeth. Ticklish job, but - nothing venture ;o))

Unless it is only hard for a few thou, of course ...........

I hope you're adding up your hours properly Tim, I wish I had a quid for every hour I've spent saving a customer money!

Regards,

J. Kim Siddorn,

Fat chance of that

I think you're looking at the wrong part, it's the ratchet teeth on the end of the large diameter which are worn. There's no need for a driven divider for that, it's a simple indexing job.

Cheers Tim Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

No, this part can't be shimmed out but the mating part can. The difficulty is the worn teeth bouncing off one another instead of engaging.

I'd only be grinding back to the point it's already worn to anyway, maybe not even quite that much.

I have to keep in mind that whatever I do must end up being substantially cheaper than the new part

The total bill is going to be pretty substantial, I'm afraid with jobs like that I do stop counting every second after a while :-(

Cheers Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

By using the Tig & Stellite filler, each tooth would only take a few seconds & with care the heating could be kept localised, and the new tooth tip would be a very similar hardness to the existing steel. It's the boundary between the two which would concern me, whether there was a danger of the Stellite breaking away & taking a bit of the parent metal with it. I've decided grinding the existing teeth back is the safer option.

Cheers Tim

Dutton Dry-Dock Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs Vintage diesel engine service

Is it worth considering annealing, welding/machining and then either re-hardening or case hardening, whichever was applied to the original?

I have often stuffed a chunk of hard steel into a lit barbeque (good ole fashioned charcoal of course) with plenty of air to get the metal red hot and then let it cool very slowly whilst the barbeque goes out. Obviously, if it's cold enough for an open fire in the house (and if you have one) letting the steel cool overnight as the fire cools tends to make most of the toughest steels machinable. I did a piece of 16T like this a while ago and a carbide tip cut it like butter.

Welding in it's hardened state may well cause cracking in later life if it is not well heat treated. After welding, I would tend to reheat it and hold near red-hot for a while to let the stresses out and then re-harden.

Just a thought

Mark

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