newb alert - petter CS clone queries

As you do, various things have conspired recently to bring me back to looking at using an indian clone petter cs as prime mover in a combined power and heat unit, with the possibility of niche commercial offerings, bearing in mind I have yet to even see an indian cs clone much yet bought one as a sacrificial lamb.

Research I have done suggests the engine(s) should be shipped over here in parts as all components need a thorough QA strip and clean anyway, and many components need replacing with better quality parts, honourable mentions go here to casting sand still being present inside motors, weedy injection lines, and over all poor finishing and presentation. So pukka blueprinting and hand built aka Gardner.

The motors themselves are cheap enough to buy to justify the added investment of labour.

Similarly coupling them to suitable alternators and so on to produce a complete heat and power genset unit is no great difficulty.

These things _can_ be done, and we end up with a massively durable and reliable heat and power genset that will last generations of heavy duty use, quite unlike the horrid stuff you can buy today.

Here's the "problem", I think it's a viable idea, after all _I_ would have one, my mate is less than convinced, and thinks my arguments about initial higher capital cost being offset by reliability and ongoing fuel savings etc are likely to fall on deaf ears in a world where the bottom line is bottom dollar as it were.

Of course it could well be that someone out there is already doing this, but I'm hoping that "preaching to the choir" in a stationary engine group will give me some idea of how well received the idea of working rather than show stationary engines is likely to be received, because if we are just going to buy a couple for our own use there is no point going to all the extra time and effort to document everything and work up all the SOP etc associated with starting up something on a semi-commercial basis.

thoughts?

Reply to
Guy Fawkes
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I'm not sure that the description "massively durable" will apply to Indian or any other Lister clones that may exist.

I'm repeating myself now, but if you want a Lister, buy one and restore it. If you want sh*te, buy a clone made by God knows who. Regards, Arthur G

Reply to
Arthur G

I'm with Arthur. Do what you will but your clone will still be made of porcine aural derma. BTW its nice to know who's posting..........????? ttfn Roland

Reply to
Roland Craven

any other Lister clones that may exist.

If you want sh*te, buy a clone made by God

why?

do you feel that the properties of cast iron have changed, or do you have reason to suggest the clones use a different grade of material?

Like I said, I haven't seen one yet, when I do these are some of the things I will be looking at, but nobody else has mentioned anything other than QA problems, technology wise it's no great challenge to match 1930's engineering materials and standards for something that was distinctly "agricultural" even then.

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

Recent reports in various magazines states that the machining / manufacturing quality and materials used have been the cause of failures.

Martin P

Reply to
Campingstoveman

which magazines (online?) ?

which makes, as there are more than a few?

the above could be interpreted as the problems I mentioned, casting sand left behind and crappy injection lines fracturing, not necessarily throwing rods or blowing pistons / dropping valves etc.

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

I fundamentally disagree with your assertions. The design was certainly robust but the materials and quality of execution are at least the equal of anything done today. regards Robert Cato

Reply to
Roland Craven

any other Lister clones that may exist.

If you want sh*te, buy a clone made by God

There is cast iron as we know it, and that produced by melted scrap which is what they use.

There are no conventional engines running on taper roller main bearings that I know of, parallel rollers, yes, but not taper roller.

Matching 1930's technology is of course quite feasible, but you wouldn't want to use your engine in the same fashion would you?

Lister's own engines of the same type are not inherently suitable for the use you described, the Indian clones are marginally better in terms of injection performance, but not enough to make them any way suitable for CHP except as a hobby interest.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Web:

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Reply to
Peter A Forbes

snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote >

No, but there are many different grades of CI.

I think they will have very lax quality control over the cast iron they use, and this will also apply to the steel in the crankshaft, valves, camshaft etcetera. It seems likely that it is all derived from scrap rather than ore, and without stringent control, as any computer expert will tell you, garbage in means garbage out.

You just have to listen to a Lister CS engine to realise it is a quality product. It doesn't take a genius to realise that if you have casting sand wandering around in a crankcase, you will soon have knackered bearings and less than perfect cylinders. Just because something *looks like* an excellent product, doesn't mean it is.

Regards, Arthur G

Reply to
Arthur G

product. It doesn't take a genius to realise

have knackered bearings and less than

doesn't mean it is.

It's probably worth mentioning at this point that the original Listers were indirect injection, with a 'softer' combustion process, while the 8/1 16/2 onwards were all direct injection which was harsher and slightly more noisy.

To get the Indian clones working half decently they had to up the pressures in the injection system, which has induced a certain amount of extra combustion noise.

The injection gear is made by Mico who are/were a Bosch licensee so it should be good kit. That assumes that they adhered to what Bosch told them to do, unlike Kirloskar who ripped off the AV series while still licensed to Petters.

The casting sand issue is something that has been a known problem in the past, but more of a problem for a potential user are the claims about these clones being 'Bio-Ready', something for which they are patently not ready at all.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Web:

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Reply to
Peter A Forbes

you state that as a fact, yet you give nothing to back it up, the same thing is said about the steels used in japanese motorcycles and cars, yet at the end of the day no-one is prepared to show even the most basic materials analysis to back it up, and as an aside quality english marques like rover didn't exactly have a superior anti corrosion reputation to nissan.

now you appear to be suggesting that ALL lister clone engines use taper rollers, I know for a fact that this is not so, some clones are quite happy with the traditional plain metal bearings.

in the same fashion as what?

1930's cs engines "did what they said on the tin" for decades, I don't see what you're getting at here.

why not? serious question.

you appear to be stating opinions here, but there is no "meat" to back it up, for example, you are not saying anything analagous to " ford 6d is made in bulk and shipped on pallettes for bugger all, gardner is quality and bespoke, so when you blow an injection line in a gardner you can simply disengage that part of the pump while the engine is still running, but the common rail pump on the ford means you have to shut down"

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

sure, there's lots of different grades of concrete too unless they are substituting a lower spec material it is irellevant you appear to be suggesting they are, but offering no proof.

and this will also apply to the steel in

"you think" is not what I might classify as empirical reproducible evidence.

someone has just said to me that "they think" you just have a problem with the indian clones because they aren't ""pukka" (which was quite funny)

I'm a time served engineer, I don't trust "think" or assumptions because in my experience they usually preceded cock-ups, I like everything verified.

I can accept you have a prejudice that these motors prolly aren't as good as the originals, and I can accept that you suspect their QA, materials, machining and so on, but until I see hard data I don't have anything useful, and hard data can only come from people with first hand experience of these clone engines.....

means garbage out.

I accept what you are saying, but what you are saying is just supposition.

do you even know for a fact that 1938 english built petter cs was poured from fresh cast ore ingots, and of what composition? or were they poured from scrap railway wheels? (serious question, test your knowledge)

so if I run a cs with a drippy injector and gummy oil, both easily rectifiable minor faults, and it sounds like crap does that mean it is suddenly a crap product?

have knackered bearings and less than

doesn't mean it is.

yeah, I realise that, that is why I said up there, if the components are clones, and only a couple of them are inferior such as injection pipes and QA on removing casting sand, and I fettle each one from component level which is feasible given their extremely low cost per unit, what's the difference?

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

yes, separate extra chamber with a manual valve which altered compression, hence the "CS" or cold start designation.

the indian ones I've "seen" are indirect injection.

err, you mean pump / injector noise, I'd defy anyone to tell the difference between identical measures of fuel at identical timings at two different pressures and the same engine at two different loads.

mico is supposed to be extremely good, benefits from modern cnc tolerances etc

aye, I've seen people running their pajeros on chip oil claiming it's better across the board, press them and they admit they have maybe a few hundred engine hours max and haven't done a full strip and inspection

having said all that these clone petters are cheap enough to serve as a donor for a DIY ricardo and then do some experimentation on alternative fuels.

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

Folks, the reports of the timing gear failures are a bit over stated. The failed timing gears were all from the same manufacturer and the first teeth to go were always adjacent to the stamped timing marks. The company has been asked to change the method of marking the gears. These are the only timing gears which have had the tooth failures. Source- Utterpower.com

Reply to
Scott McAfee

All the information I have quoted is either from direct observation, from Lister's themselves or from the importers of the Metex engine in Australia.

You appear to have vast amounts of knowledge at your disposal, coupled with a lot of information on the engines, so why ask the questions in the first place?

I do not feel that further discussion on the subject would serve any useful purpose.

Peter

-- Peter & Rita Forbes Email: snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk Web:

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Reply to
Peter A Forbes

Dear Null It seems there is little to be gained by further discussion. I suggest you just go ahead and market the sets. best of luck

Reply to
Roland Craven

Dear Mr Fawkes,

Am I right in remembering you said that you'd not actually seen one of these engines yourself?

Regards,

Kim Siddorn

Reply to
Kim Siddorn

Guy Fawkes,

Please contact me off-list to discuss further.

TIA

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com

Reply to
Ken_Boak

that's correct, I myself have not physically touched any indian clones

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

I have a 1980 japanese motorcycle that was basically a latter day nod / tribute to the vincent rapide, it has original HRD footrest rubbers.

go _anywhere_ near the classic bike crowd and a large proportion of them start getting angina, because all they care about is the originals, and of course the exclusivity of the originals.....

I get the distinct feeling that there is an element of that going on here, no direct experience of the indian clones, but they can't be up to scratch because they are built by fuzzy wuzzies and not by gentlemen in flat caps smoking meerschaums, just not original you see old boy.

I don't have a problem with that, if engine snobbery is your thing then good luck to you, I only have a problem when snobbery is dressed up as fact, and when people are asked to cite sources all you get is bluster and not answers.

given the thread is only a day old, so far I can be forgiven for thinking that everyone who has replied has opinions, some have read about these motors, but nobody thus far has physically seen one themselves or better still owned or worked on one.

Reply to
Guy Fawkes

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