OT but very relevant to us all

"Nick H" wrote:-

Oi, who mangled my post - is this NG being nobbled by 'the powers that be' ?

Reply to
Nick H
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To follow this line of argument you will have to get your skates on and stock up on the 'old' style cableing with red and black wires. The introduction of the new regs coincides conveniently with the introduction of new harmonised colours for house wiring i.e. brown and blue. So new coloured wiring means it was done after 1st Jan 2005.

There has been a lot of discussion on uk.diy about this recently. Householders will still be able to do their own wiring provided they submit a Building Notice to their Council Building Dept, along with the relevant fee for the priviledge, at least 2 days BEFORE they start the work. They must then have it inspected on completion and singed off by the Building Control Officer before use. The fee covers as many inspections as required to have the work passed.

Householders will still be able to do minor wiring without involving Building Control, but this is only things like changing light switchs, fittings and sockets.

There have been suggestions that new wiring without a Building certificate could affect the future saleability of properties as it is possible to ask Local Councils for copies of Building Certificate during Land searches etc.

In opinion it's just more bureaucracy for the sake of it!

Reply to
Jimmy

Not so, the old wiring will remain available, and you can use it quite legally as long as it is matched up with existing Black/Red wiring. If you use Red/Black with new coloured wiring then you have to attach a sticker (available free from most wholesalers) to show that the two colour systems are in use.

I think that is probably true to the letter of the reg's, but it won't happen like that in practice, as most local authorities haven't a clue about the new regulations, and even less of a clue as to how they are going to cope with the flood of inspection/certification requests.

There will be a nice dividing line between what you say you have done and what is actually carried out.

Totally impossible to control and legislate for.

Yup.

Peter

-- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Luton, UK snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk

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Reply to
Prepair Ltd

Go read uk.d-i-y It's the best place for sensible comment on this.

It's grim, but it's not as grim as some have made out. Classic example of bored legislators looking for something to control though.

Reply to
Andy Dingley

I've heard that some places have stopped stocking the black/red cabling=20 already and will only supply the new harmonised cable. So it's only a=20 matter of time until the black/red runs out. I can't see manufacturers=20 producing both black/red and blue/brown just so those of use who have=20 the knowledge to do our own wiring can continue without jumping through=20 the hoops. I don't dispute the labling as the new cabling will be used=20 in a recently rewired property at some time and will certainly have to=20 be indicated somehow to avoid mistakes/confusion by future installers.

It is true. I had to jump through these hoops to install my own oil=20 fired boiler recenlty and paid =A3170 for the privilege. Yes the BCO was =

as much use as chocolate fireguard and didn't have a clue what he was=20 looking at, but passed it anyway as I had demonstrated that I had=20 studied the regs and knew what I was doing before submitting the=20 building notice. The same will apply to new electrical installations and =

part P regs as well. A worrying situation as they are probably passing=20 installations which aren't safe and the new part P regs are just going=20 to add to the workload and passing of potentially unsafe eletctrical=20 installations as well.

Yep, that's why we should stock up on black/red cable if we've got any=20 major wiring project in the offing. You can also get round it if the=20 project was started before the regs are enforceable and there will be=20 grey areas which can be argued either way.

I agree, but what about potential buyers who are sticklers and want to=20 see that everything has been done by the book. They can inspect plans=20 and building notices to confirm this and use it as a tools to knock the=20 price down or just walk away. Someone will eventually buy without going =

to these lengths, but how long would you wait for that to happen.

At least we agreed on something ;)

Regards

Jimmy

Remove your shoes before replying

Reply to
Jimmy

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:53:17 +0000, Jimmy

Nah, we agreed on most of it :-))

Peter

Reply to
Peter A Forbes

In message , Jimmy writes

Harmonised colours came out last April....... The old colours can be used until 2006 IIRC We have already changed having said that cable manufacturers are still unable to supply any tri rated cable above 6mmsq in the new colours.

Reply to
Julian Tether

No flames from me. Your point is valid. My argument is that like many other recent bits of, largely delegated, legislation this is both unsupportable, and unenforceable, and so will have no effect whatsoever on the crooks/cowboys. Dare I risk drawing the parallels with increasing gun restrictions which burden the law-abiding without impacting the crooks. A cynic might suggest its another money making scam from our revered Chancellor. If I were being extreme I might be tempted to draw further parallels with the stream of "reasonable" legislation passed in the 1930s by the National Socialist Party in Germany. Like this load of crap it was simply designed to protect the majority!!!!!!!!!!! My turn for the flames now :-) Roland

Reply to
Roland and Celia Craven

Depends on you definition of 'not expensive' Without looking it all up again, ISTR figures of about 400 quid for a piece of paper, plus proving you have all the test equipment, plus PI insurance. The last one would be the real killer for anyone wanting to just be legally permitted to do some fairly basic wiring at home. Correct me please if I'm wrong.

Cheers Tim

Reply to
Tim Leech

Gentlemen, I have heard these comments passed about almost every piece of similar legislation. I certainly remember it about MOT tests. The cry of "we are not going to be allowed to work on our own cars" and "I know that my car is safe, why do I need to pay to have it checked" were all trotted out. My father heard the same when driving tests were bought out. The fact is that legislation such as this saves lives. This group is populated by people who are generally competent. However, does everyone know the contents of the 16th edition IEE regs otherwise known as BS 7671? Can we all carry out calculations for let through energy, earth loop impedance, etc? If we can, do we posses the test equipment to measure the functional areas of wiring installations? I Know I don't have this equipment and my memory of the calculations is a little rusty. As has been said, you can still install your own wiring and carry out limited work. Extensive works MUST be certified by a licenced inspector. It's just like an MOT when your electrical system is altered and it helps to make it safe. Of course, you can ignore the law. It will be almost impossible to police it (new build apart). When you come to sell your house however and the purchasers solicitor asks for the inspection certificate, cries of "I don't need one because I know what I'm doing" won't carry any weight. Contractors who are capable of working with Tri-rated cable or SWA are easily found. I use such people on LV and HV at work. I agree that your local house basher is out of his depth there but so would a car mechanic be if asked to service a 40 Tonne HGV. For those who genuinely do know about electrical installations, prove it. Take the exam and get your certificate. It's not expensive and you will be allowed to do all you own work legally. Until then, the law will assume that you are NOT qualified and will therefore require your work to be tested. I await the flames.

John

"Campingstoveman" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@uni-berlin.de...

Reply to
John Manders

John, As the instigator of this thread I dont disagree with any comment made here except for the fact that deaths caused by electricution according to figures given on the radio were only in the 20's for last year, 20 to many true but still a minixcule percentage all the same. The point I was trying to make is similar to Roland's and that is the fact that we are no longer allowed to decide when we die be it accident or natural because the plonkers that govern us do not have the slightest clue as to what goes on in this country and there soul aim in life is to screw us for every penny they can by bringing in stupid untested and unwanted legislation that cannot and will not be policed by those that should know and dont, but some poor old dear will be taken for her savings because a so called electrician has convinced her that her son can no longer look after the fabric of her house and this is what it is going to cost you madam, thank you very much. As you pointed out some of us do it for a job and others of us know who to ask, we are the minority.

Martin P

Reply to
Campingstoveman

Unfortunately I have to hold my hand up as an HGV Truck Fitter (retired) Electronics/Electrical designer/builder and I manage to do my own servicing as well... I still keep my HGV licence up to date as well.

If you service your own car and something falls off, then you are personally liable. Although your insurers would probably still cover you for any accidental damage to third parties, they would take a dim view of the whole affair, but that's what most DIY'ers do, they don't realise the ramifications until the wheel falls off.

Similarly with HGV truck servicing, electrical wiring and so on, the job is only as good as the person doing it, and I feel no pricks of conscience about not having any formal qualifications, I have 40+ years of experience instead, and that counts for rather more to me than a recently acquired certificate that says I have passed a test.

I am not against the principal of getting work standards raised, but why should we have this additional bureaucracy when life is already getting more and more regulated and constrained by what must be the most regulation-happy administration this country has ever seen?

Tim makes a good point about getting a certificate. Pay me the money and I'll go and do it, when I have the spare time, but in the meantime I'll carry on as before. I have a copy of the 16th edition, well-thumbed but as a working guide it's a maze of complexity that most couldn't understand if they had a year to go through it. It wasn't written by people to be understood by other people, it was written to lay out the various regulations, guidelines and ratings so that ordinary folk can be shown the relevant sections when they are in need of the data.

If I go to the DTI and ask about power factor correction in respect of our current largest charger, they cannot give me a definitive answer, because there isn't one. "The regulations are subject to interpretation" is the cry that goes up, simply because they don't understand the reg';s themselves, and that is where the danger lies in all this, we will head into the great unknown led by the unknowing, but clutching handfuls of EC paperwork to their bosoms as though it were the Holy Grail.

As far as Public Liability, Product Liability insurances go, you won't get it unless you have a very deep pocket indeed. We had our Product Liability insurance cover declined after 25 years without a claim or accident. We can't sell to the USA as we cannot get cover for that country. We can't get insurance for railway related work etc etc. Eventually it will finish up with the larger companies regaining the monopolies they had years ago as the smaller guys won't be able to stay in the game.

Peter

Reply to
Peter A Forbes

One of my customer recently had a new supply cable put in as his supply wasn't big enough for a newly installed 5Kw Laser cutter. The contractors were the local lecky board, They had to run a new cable off the ring road down to his industrial estate, a distance of 3/4 of a mile, as there wasn't enough spare on the estate.

This was a dedicated 700 amp per phase cable to supplement what they already had.

When they came to connect up they connected a phase to neutral.

The ensuing bang ripped the dizzy box of the wall, threw it about 15 foot, and blew every piece of single phase equipment in the place. For 3 months they had a large spare office piled to the ceiling with computers, printers, faxes, kettles, photo copiers etc., etc, whilst their insurers tried to sort this out.

It also took a lot of the operating system electrics out of two existing

1/2 million quid laser cutters. Can you imagine the bill of having three Swiss technicians over here on overtime rates for 3 weeks? We won't mention down time.

And these are the people we have to trust ??

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Reply to
John Stevenson

Yup, I take it back about not being expensive. I have looked it up again and the £400 matches the one figure I have found. I doubt that the others are far away. PI insurance is debatable since you are only doing your own house but there is also the on going cost of instrument calibration. It would still be cheaper than paying an electrician to do the whole job. I do maintain that the end result should make life safer and reduce the number of cases of dangerous wiring that we have all seen and possibly done. I know that I trust the electrical installation more in a modern certified house than in an older property that is owned by a DIY enthusiast. I partially agree with Roland. This legislation will bring in more work for the electrical contracting industry. The gas installation regs did just the same for that industry. I can still install my own gas pipework but it must be professionally certified before it can be legally connected. Gas explosions are now a rarity thank goodness. That's not a coincidence. A final point. While we may be capable of installing electrical wiring safely, is everyone else? I don't want to die just yet and it may be someone else's wiring that does for me.

John

Reply to
John Manders

I wouldn't, it's exactly the sort of job which *should* be done by the professionals. Rather different from a bit of domestic wiring. I wouldn't trust an *average* DIY man to do more than the simplest wiring in my house, but I would trust myself & I'll resent it if I end up having to pay top rates for someone else to do it. Having said that, I was required as a condition of my business lease

10 years ago to get the dock wiring inspected. I knew there was no way it would pass, so I rewired the lot & then got the local contractors to do an inspection. Their lad was here half the day, they charged about 50 quid, passed it after picking me up on one small thing. No complaints there, but I don't expect to get that sort of value regularly especially as there will now be much more demand. John's story just indicates that employing the 'professionals' is no guarantee that the job will be right. I'm guessing they didn't test the wiring before switching it on, John?

Cheers Tim

Reply to
Tim Leech

It's going to be 'Light the Blue Touchpaper' time tomorrow, as we start setting up and testing the 100kW battery charger that we have been building for a couple of months.

I had to get a new set of main fuses organised as we didn't have any spares in the factory and the local baord needs 24hours callout time to replace blown main supply fuses. Last time it happened we changed them ourselves and told them afterwards so they could come and seal the box up again.

The beastie takes 90A per phase on full chat, but we're starting off through a BIG three-phase variac to keep the surge current down at turn-on.

Peter

Reply to
Peter A Forbes

OOPS Perhaps I am niaive but I would like to think that events such as this are the exception for them. We have all made mistakes. I am fortunate mine have all been minor so far (touch wood). I also assume that they are insured or have sufficient financial backing to cover the costs. Would you trust a DIY man to do this work?

John

Reply to
John Manders

OOPS Perhaps I am naive but I would like to think that events such as this are the exception for them. As Peter says, the job is only as good as the man doing the work and we are human so we have all made mistakes. I am fortunate mine have all been minor so far (touch wood). I also assume that they are insured or have sufficient financial backing to cover the costs. Would you trust a DIY man to do this work?

John

Reply to
John Manders

I genuinely mean no offence but the logic behind all these laws was once described by a very basic friend, in another context, as "...eat s**t, three trillion flies can't be wrong.." Otherwise perhaps Lemmings, Gadarene swine or "it seemed like a good idea at the time..." The substance of the R4 discussions has been that the Councils, in practice, have no-one to do the job and I know what answer I'll get from the three local sparks of my acquaintance - the politest will be a very long wait! kind regards Roland

Reply to
Roland and Celia Craven

That situation will still apply after April. You can still do your own installation work and have it checked and certified at completion. The only question is the cost. The work can (in theory) be carried out by the local authorities building inspector and I seem to remember seeing a reasonable price being quoted.

John

Reply to
John Manders

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