A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Since it is the correct name for the type of signal (i.e ones with red arms/white stripe) Hornby-Doublo breast milk must be good stuff.

Operationally, if it is placed before the block post (NOT necessarily the same place as the signal box) the it is still called a "home" signal, but if placed after the block post it becomes a "starter" signal.

Cheers Richard

: : Since it is the correct name for the type of signal (i.e ones with red : arms/white stripe) Hornby-Doublo breast milk must be good stuff. : : Operationally, if it is placed before the block post (NOT necessarily the : same place as the signal box) the it is still called a "home" signal, but : if placed after the block post it becomes a "starter" signal. :

Err, you seem to have contradicted yourself...

or else could be a siding signal, junction indicator, inner home, outer home, advanced starter, etc etc

I think you are missing the point, and I would like to point out it's not just you - railway modelers are terrible at signalling and railway operation, and train spotters even worse. A lot of myths are perpetuated by the magazines too - using terms that sound cool, but are often meaningless. It would be like me describing something Naval - I expect I would sound like a complete amateur to a real Matelot.

A home signal, in the context of the original post, is a red arm with white stripe, i.e. it is not a distant. In terms of physical construction that's it. If you were to pick one up (real or model) and plonk it before the block post, it aquires the monica (and function) "Home Signal", and if after "Distant Signal" (both possibly having a qualifier, inner, outer etc), but it is still a home signal in terms of construction. Until it is placed (again, real or model), it's not possible to give it it's monica (Home or Starter), or a qualifier (inner, outer, etc). So our old Hornby-Doublo friends are quite correct to describe a model signal in it's box as being a home signal.

In terms of when it is on the layout, calling it a home signal when not describing its function is still correct, whereever it is placed. An "Up Outer Advanced Starter" is still a home signal in terms of construction. It would only be when saying something like "pull off the Up Outer Home Starter signal" that they would be wrong.

Cheers Richard

You are just plain wrong and seem intent on classifying yourself with the undesirables who were criticised in the OP.

For myself, I have worked at a railway signall>>> >>>> I wonder if it is still the case nowadays as it was 30 years ago that

Good for you - I was a Signalman (and a Guard before that).

Cheers Richard

And all generalisations are false.

Aside from the obvious issues of scale distance, I'd assume our club layout has signals in the right places, given the day jobs of the people who specified them.

Who it appears know bog-all about English regional architecture...

Is that for Inter-City services?

(and function) "Home Signal", and

I bet the magazines can use apostrophe's better than signallers :)

: : Aside from the obvious issues of scale distance, I'd assume our club : layout has signals in the right places, given the day jobs of the people : who specified them. :

Apart for the most obvious errors that some make, the most common mistake most people make is to signal for far to many movements, were in real life the movement would have been achieved by word of mouth between driver/shunter and signalman together with the deployment of one or two hand flags.

Strange that you described them as "semaphore stop signals" then and didn't used the correct term of (the signal being either) "On" or "Off" - I trust that they taught you to use a broom correctly though...

: > For myself, I have worked at a railway signalling manufacturer for 10 : > years. : >

: >

: : Good for you - I was a Signalman (and a Guard before that). :

I disagree with what you said but not with what you meant, IYSWIM? :~)

Well, fair enough, how about "in general, railway modellers.... "

I can't figure that one out!

Got me there as well! If it's the spelling then I can firmly blame Pan news reader - despite the rest of the machine being set up for UK spelling, Pan insists on US spelling which generates some weird words!

One would hope so! I do hope this doesn't turn into one of the news group spelling/punctuation things.... ;-)

Cheers Richard

"invalid" wrote

I pass no comment whatsoever, but a railway modeller friend of mine, who's actually a professional railways signalman and a signalling enthusiast, is generally very scathing about the way the modelling press represent the subject.

Having said that the term 'stop' signal comes to mind.

John.

I think the real problem is that signals on the real thing aren't usually being carried around on someone's shoulder, they are fixed in place and described by their function, so I can't think of a circumstance where there would be a need to use the physical construction to describe them as there is with models. Perhaps "not a Distant or subsidiary signal" would be the best description ;-)

Cheers Richard

Recon you are close there but .... Trouble is we are treating the description as a science and not as an art that would depend on the context/region/period. A specific signal at a particular location would have a name given by the drawing office, the people making it could have another name, the person installing it, operating dept describing it at its location, the signaller, the signal diagram in the box. The driver may have called it 'that effing one thats always stopping me'. Assume these names could be different between regions/companies and change over time. Does it matter ? cheers, Simon

Although not necessarily relevant to a discussion based on BR and it predecessors and sucessors, the Victorian Railways (Australia) Rules and Regulations of 1919 when describing signal indications have "Semaphore signals other than distant signals" and "Distant signals". the previous rule says that "Fixed Signals are classified as Distant, Home, Starting, Advanced Starting, Automatic, Calling-on, Disc and Dwarf Signals".

I think that those selling model railway semaphore signals might not like the idea of describing their red, square-ended signal as being a "Semaphore signal other than distant signal" though. Home seems like a perfectly reasonable description of the item, once it's planted on the layout it then can take a different name. Whether modellers choose to call it something different is a different thing altogether.

I wonder what term the real railways would use when ordering this equipment from their own workshops, or outside suppliers? I bet they wouldn't ask for equipment for 2 distants, 6 home signals, 2 starters and one advance starter. It would be for 2 distants and nine what?

John

Although not necessarily relevant to a discussion based on BR and it predecessors and sucessors, the Victorian Railways (Australia) Rules and Regulations of 1919 when describing signal indications have "Semaphore signals other than distant signals" and "Distant signals". the previous rule says that "Fixed Signals are classified as Distant, Home, Starting, Advanced Starting, Automatic, Calling-on, Disc and Dwarf Signals".

I think that those selling model railway semaphore signals might not like the idea of describing their red, square-ended signal as being a "Semaphore signal other than distant signal" though. Home seems like a perfectly reasonable description of the item, once it's planted on the layout it then can take a different name. Whether modellers choose to call it something different is a different thing altogether.

I wonder what term the real railways would use when ordering this equipment from their own workshops, or outside suppliers? I bet they wouldn't ask for equipment for 2 distants, 6 home signals, 2 starters and one advance starter. It would be for 2 distants and nine what?

John

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All -

Sorry to spoil a good story with some facts, but when in doubt go back to primary sources.

The MOT Railway Construction and Operation Requirements for Passenger Lines and Recommendations for Goods Lines (1969 edition) - the so-called Blue Book - includes:

"Stop and Distant semaphore signals or equivalent light signals to be provided for each running line at all block posts and to protect any connections there."

The British Railways Rule Book 1950, Rule 16 note (iii) states:

"The term "stop signal" refers to a home, starting or an advanced starting signal."

Rule 34 states:

"Fixed signals consist of distant, stop and subsidiary signals."

Rule 35 includes two pages of diagrams, one headed "Distant Signals" and the other "Stop Signals (Home, Starting and Advanced Starting)"

Rule 37 is headed "Stop Signals (Home, Starting and Advanced Starting)"

The Great Western Railway General Appendix to the Rule Book dated 1 August

1936 includes coloured diagrams of all sorts of signals.

A signal with a full length red arm and a white vertical stripe is described as a Stop signal. A signal with a notched full length yellow arm and a black vee stripe is described as a Distant signal (caveat - other railways may have used different designations).

From this it should be clear that the term Stop signal refers to the physical form of the signal, while the terms Home, Starting and Advanced Starting refer to different functions performed by a Stop signal according to where it is sited. The term Distant signal refers both to its physical form and to its function.

Thanks.

Yes of course facts are useful but shouldnt stifle debate :-) In one of his books Bob Essery refers to home etc as Running Signals, indeed theres an article in recent (poss this month) BackTrack by an ex-signaller who also uses this term.

Cheers, Simon

Having worked in the S&T on the Southern we would order signal arms and posts and when assembled and connected to the signal box they became one of the following:- Distant, Outer Home, Starter and Advanced starter (main running signals only listed).

Chris

.

So you (the purchaser) would then cut the chevron into the arm for a distant signal, rather than it being supplied that way. No reason why not, and railways do have significant workshop capabilities.

John

John