Flying Pigs

LMS Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0. 43000 number series in BR days, 3000 in LMS. A recent release by Bachmann in the UK.

HTH, Mick

There is a Wikipedia link, but the numbers are wrong!!

Cool - didn't know you could edit Wiki stuff. Numbers now changed!

Cheers, Mick

The Wikipedia article also talks about the looks being spoiled by the missing 'fallplate' restored on the BR Standard version. Since the fallplate or lack of it is not visible I think the author is referring to the gap in the footplate ahead of the cylinders. The sloping plate used to fill this gap (and hinder servicing of the valves) does not seem to have a name, it has to be described. Its certainly not a fallplate which is used to provide a continuous cab floor between engine and tender. Keith

referring

plate

It does have a name, it the running plate, the fact that it's vertical at that point and has a step attached is neither here nor there!

Running plate is an alternative, and more common name for the footplate outside the cab, ie alongside and in front of the boiler, its the horizontal part the crew walk on. You can't say that the Ivatt does not have a running plate. I don't know any specific name for the sloping (or curved in older designs) plate that joins the two levels of running plate ahead of the cylinders, it has to be described as I have just done. Keith

Sorry but you are wrong, the footplate is the footplate, the running plate is the running plate.

":::Jerry::::" wrote

I agree Jerry - the footplate is the floor of the cab, the running plate is the footway alongside the boiler. The fall-plate is the hinged part of the footplate which bridges cab & tender.

John.

And the running plate is not the sloping bit that fills in between the horizontal running plates ahead of the cylinders (Note not vertical on the locos under discussion, you can make errors too). So if the Wikepedia entry was changed to substitute 'running plate' for 'fallplate' it would not be corrected, rather the error would be increased. The point is that there is no simple name for the sloping part to replace the incorrect 'fallplate' in the Wikepedia article, at least no-one has come up with one yet. Hence to correct the information given requires a long winded description. Keith

In the USA we simply call them "steps" or "ladders" depending upon whether they are sloped or vertical. Would this work in UK?

least

It's still the running plate, it matter not that it's sloping, vertical or curved, it's still the running plate.

The term 'running plate' possibly came about due to, in the early days of the steam engine, the need for the crew to actually walk along that plate-work whilst the loco was moving - hence 'running plate'.

The sloping plate at the front of steam locos. pops up frequently on German engines, I wonder if the Germans have a name for it, knowing their delight in regulation and order, I wouldn't be surprised. I've sometimes read of such plates as being called 'apron plates', which is not a bad description as they perform the same protective function as a proper apron does. Regards, Bill.

"William Pearce" wrote

But it's they are not there for *protection* they're generally 'steps' linking two parts of the running plate - hence I'd suggest 'running plate steps'.

John,

Well yes, but they are not just steps, locos without them such as the Ivatts under discussion have steps, the sloping plates were added to the BR Standards because people (with influence, presumably including ES Cox) thought they didn't look 'right' without them, they do incorporate the steps as well.

We still haven't found a word to replace 'fallplate' in that Wikipedia entry. Keith

frequently on

knowing their

'steps'

'running plate

The step is the step! The metal (in question) that the step is riveted or welded to is still part of the running plate, unless there isn't running plate a available in which case the step will be attached to the mainframes, smoke-box or what ever (just as steps can be attached to any other part of the loco or tender)...

including

Wikipedia

We are talking about the RUNNING PLATE not the fallplate, the fallplate is the plate that bridges the gap between loco and tender (and is hinged to the tender). Tank engines, such as the Standard

4MT, do not have a fallplate but still have a footplate and running boards.

So the CORRECT word to use IS 'Running plate'.

This is getting a bit daft, but I'm still on holiday so lets carry on, the question here is replacing the incorrect word 'fallplate' in this Wikipedia entry which was drawn to our attention by Mick Bryan.

It says the following, The design was noted for its American looks ? it was noticeably without a fallplate and incorporated new mechanical features. Because of this it is widely considered to be the ugliest British locomotive produced.

and then The BR standard class 4 2-6-0 was based on this design. Its looks were improved somewhat by the reincorporation of a fallplate.

You are saying that substitution of 'running plate' for 'fallplate' in the above will make it correct.

I have said that that is not so and a more complex description than substitution of one word is needed if the information is to be both correct and understood.

Keith

After looking at what is involved in editing the Wikepedia entry, with its incorrect use of 'fallplate' I discovered that they require the editing to be verifiable by reference to a reputable published source. So I went and dug out my source, 'British Railways Standard Steam locomotives by E S Cox. E S Cox had a career in Steam loco design from joining the L&Y to the end of steam design on BR. He was involved in the LMS developments under Ivatt including design of the loco in question and was in charge of design work on the BR standards. He did, as surmised consider the 43xxx to be ugly and that his changes to make the 76xxx were an improvement, and the issue of the sloping front gets discussed on pages 92/93 of the above book. Interestingly the words he uses are, "and absence of footplating in front of the cylinders or even of any external footplating at all were quite unneccessary affronts to the fitness of things. Thus external footplating was bracketed from the boilers on the new engines instead of from the main frames."

Note no mention of running plates or boards at all and your insistence that Running Plate is the only correct name is wrong, even when you shout.

Regards Keith

"Keith" wrote

Had three steam era railway men in the shop this pm, and all insist that running plate is the correct term.

John.

No-one has said that running plate is incorrect, I used footplate in my original message, which term has been commonly used by modellers and also by the engineers who designed the engines, when this was queried I agreed that running plate was an alternative and probably more common. Jerry has just been insisting that running plate is the only correct term, in the process losing the point of the discussion which was to achieve an appropriate correction for the erroneous use of 'fallplate' in Wikipedia. Our language rarely has any absolutes where something is described by one term and no others. Keith