Shed Layout

Roger T. wrote:


We do, its called foil backed plaster board here. My house is timber framed, brick clad outer, reasonably warm with minimal energy input compared with older construction.
Niel.
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Any fiberglass insulation between the framing studs?
--
Martin S.

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MartinS wrote:

Dam right!
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BH Williams wrote:
[...]

Make sure you use vapour barrier (plastic sheeting) between the insulation and the wall board, else humidity will infiltrate, etc.
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Further points :- Stand shed clear of ground on low supports if possible- mine wasn't, and so the floor rotted and fell apart (mind you, it toook about 25 years to do this, having originally been the site hut when my parents built the house). Concrete blocks or railway sleepers are a possibility, though these latter are currently stupidly expensive. I'd definitely avoid a coke fire, as CO might prove lethal if not used in a building with adequate ventilation. To be honest, a 60 W bulb was adequate most of the time in mine, with a fan heater on the few occassions when it got really cold. Brian
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I rarely visit my shed between December and April; it would involve either digging a path through the snow or wading through a swamp.
--
Martin S.

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Admin wrote:

In my experience of N stuff, as a general rule of thumb; Japanese and US outline is cheapest and highest quality. UK is a bit dearer and lower quality (even the new "improved" stuff isn't that good when you look what the US and Japanese get). European is more expensive, better quality than UK, not as good as the best US and Japanese.

DCC in Farish is possible, but not the simplest. I'd still suggest it for someone starting out; may as well go with DCC from day one. Don't rule out some of the "less obvious" controller makers, such as Uhlenbrock (who make Fleishmann's DCC controllers) - I like their Daisy and Fred controllers.

Should be OK, so long as you've some expansion joints (or flexibility in the track to otherwise expand and contract). Watch out for spiders, mice and other shed life. Condensation may be an issue if its not got adequate ventilation.

I'd not build a 6*3 layout on the side; reaching across 3ft of layout is a right pain; at best you'll catch your jumper on something at the front, at worst you'll stain your back whilst reaching over. . I'd build a narrower layout down one side - say 1ft to 18in deep, if you want continuous run, return the tracks up the other side of the shed on a temporary plank shelf until you get round to doing it properly. I'd also use as much of the 10ft of run as I could.
- Nigel
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wrote:
Mickey,

I think you are going to have to insulate it, and maybe heat it, to try and provide a stable climate to control dampness. The problem wont be rain getting in through a leaky roof, but the formation of condensation when temperatures cycle from cold to warm through the dew point. If you can keep the ambient temperature above the dew point then you can avoid the problem.
If the shed is well insulated, then heating need not be expensive, and a small wattage electric convector heater with a thermostat can keep the shed at a reasonable temperature (50F+) when not in use without costing an arm and a leg, and can be turned up when in use to get the ambient temperature up to a comfortable level for humans.
A bit of ventilation does no harm either, especially when you are in the shed, to get rid of all the water vapour that we humans exude :-)
And don't be tempted to use open flame oil heaters - they chuck out an unbelievable amount of water into the atmosphere.
Jim.
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Thanks everyone, I am pretty happy that the shed will not be a major issue, I'll follow the guidance on insulation but not sure if I can endure the laughter from my wife when I try to carpet the shed. For heating I can use a spare greenhous electrical heater, works well and has a nice defrost setting. The idea of narrowing from 3' to 18" sounds good as well.
Thanks, I can now move the dream along a little further. Still not sure how I'll fit the Cheshire Lines Committee into a Continental setup but I'm working on that one!
Kind Regards, Mickey
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:20:31 +0000 (UTC), "Mickey"
Mickey,

If your shed has a concrete floor, then anything that softens the surface will help. Standing around on cold concrete for hours is no laughing matter :-)
Jim.
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Mickey wrote:

Put the wife in the shed and use your bedroom for your layout! ;o)
--
Dave



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wrote:

Yup, do NOT use a parafin heater, every pint of fuel burnt produces a pint of water in the air. Best is a pot-belly stove burning coke (you get to use all that junk mail to get it started) but that requires firing up, an electric fan heater is probably the next best option.
You can get clever and run a thin ply trunking down from the roof area to the heater so it draws its air from the top (whewre the warm air gathers) and blows it out at foot level (whewre the cold air collects), this reduces the temperature gradient with makes you feel better and keeps your feet warm especially if you are sitting still in the room. You can get very uncomfortable if your head gets hot and your feet cold, doing this also reduces by quite a lot the amount of heat you will find you need in the room.
If you want to go over the top add an electrostatic 'ion generator' at the intake end and cut slots into the trunking into which you insert metal sheets (or varnished ply sheets) coated with grease. That is how they clean the air in 'clean rooms' and it will help deal with the dust you generate. These sheets need to be removed, cleaned and re-greased at intervals.
Do not smoke in the room if you can avoid it. I do not use them so I cannot comment on the effect of 'smoke units'
A shelf layout running round the walls is preferable for many reasons, I feel it is better than any solid board design. I had such a layout in a small shed in N that kept me entertained and I have helped built a couple for other people.
DStrip lighting is preferable, a strip down each side for preference to avoid casting a shadow with your body.
Its fine having a shed layout, and it makes a nice 'escape pod' when things get stressed
HTH&GL
Mike
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snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote:

Strange clean rooms, the biggest in the country (was biggest in europe) where I monitored its classification (class 100) and the ones where I work now, down to class 10, all use HEPA ceiling filters, with several other stages before that, none of which use grease....Lots of places sell spun fibre filters, much easier to live with.
Niel.
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wrote:

My experience of the idea dates back to the mid 1970s, it was an electronics assembly area, positive pressure via filters but with greased plates just hanging in the room, which I was told were to collect dust - I tried the ioniser and greased plate idea myself a few years back, high ceiling room, cold feet, it fixed the problem of the cold feet and the plates collected a lot of gunk from the air
Regards
Mike
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Admin wrote:

The main problem with an unheated, uninsulated garden shed is that the changes in temperature also bring with them changes in humidity, and those in turn can wreak havoc on baseboards, trackbeds, anything made of wood or woodfibre (such as MDF.) Same is true of unheated, uninsulated attics, garages, and basemenst (cellars.) Also changes in temperature can affect rail length in nasty ways, although that effect is usually not as great as the effects of humidity on the underlying track bed.
People have had success with a site such as yours, but I wouldn't risk it, not in these days of relatively cheap insulation materials which reduce the cost of heating. The shed should be kept at or above about 15 degrees Centigrade to reduce the risks of humidity changes.
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:26 -0400, Wolf Kirchmeir

I have used plywood in a shed but also 'contiboard' (hard plastic coated high density chipboard, possibly similar to MDF sold as shelving), mounted on spur shelving at 15 inch centres.
On top of the contiboard I used fibre insertion used between concrete sections on buildings to allow for expansion (in the buildings). This is a lightweight felt material. Not much cheaper, if at all, than sundela. This gives very quiet running.
I made slots in the surface using a screwdriver for wires and wire in tube point control (messy job as the felt frays). Once all was ready for track laying I coated the felt with dilute PVA, not at all sure this was necessary. Track (peco) was glued down using diluted flexible (book binding) PVA, you can buy this from model shops from Anita Decor, you can also buy it direct if you want to buy a lot.
Its been in there for many years, the felt and track was replaced once when I changed the layout but the shelving in an unheated shed in Manchester (damp if not wet). The Max Min thermometer indicates that temperatures have ranged between about zero and up to 90 deg F over the years. I just ran a rubber over the track, connected the power and ran an 0-6-0 tank round with no problems at all.
No sign of warping or any other distortion. I used a lot of sectional (Minitrix) track and put a steel rule between the sections as I assembled the layout, gives a nice clickety clack and deals with possible expansion problems. There are no indications of problems on the Peco flex track sections (mostly the hidden tracks).
One odd point is that a strip of flet screwed to a strip of exterior ply with some track secured to it using wire instead of glue is still in good and useable condition after several years propped up in the yard.
The point being that this would serve for quiet running on sections of track outside (such as the suggested loops). Sitting the track on Peco foam would add a measure of realism if required. I would suggest using Slaters 20thou brass wire to secure the track - two holes punched through felt and supporting timber, wire looped over the sleepers, down through the holes and twisted underneath. I used steel florists wire, its still there after several years outside but I would expect it to rust away eventually
Re coke stoves, you need to buy a proper one. A friend lived on a canal boat for years, he now has such a stove in his living room and another (smaller) one in his garage cum workshop with a zig-zag chimney (apparently a lot of the heat comes from the stove pipe).
He tells me they are safer than parafin/butane heaters from a CO perspective.
HTH
Mike
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The Fleishman set track system uses 7.5 inch and 9 inch nominal radius curves for radius 1 and 2 - Bachman have already said their new engines wil not run on curves of thess than about 10 inch radius.
Radius 3 and 4 are about eighteen and ninteen and a half inches, there are no intermediate radius curves in this range.
I have just got hold of some Fleishman stuff to play with European and US outline stock (http://www.igg.org.uk/rail/layout.htm shows the track plan)
This uses Fleishman track, the points of which have a 7.5 inch (radius 1) inner curve. The continental stuff runs like a dream, even the uncoupling ramps work every time (although not with my old Lima stock). To date my old Farish locos have coped fine with the 7.5 inch radius curves but as I understand it the new stuff will not run on these curves.
The standard Fleishman points have what amounts to a radius 4 (just over eighteen inches) curve.
Re CLC you need LNER engines (in the main) and there are firms offering their own limited ranges of locomotives, including an 060 tender engine, but you would need to check with them re the minimum radius.
I am going to try a US outline engine on these, probably a Life Like S9 shunter but having asked on rec.models.railroad no one knew if their US stuff could handle such tight curves.
If you come across any UK outline bodies that will fit on Fleishman steam chassis I'd like to hear about them but if looking at Farish stuff go for the diesels, they run better and have better electrical pick up. Locos that do not run well are ornaments, I knwo as I own some.
HTH
Mike
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snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote: [...]

The S9 will run around the 7.5 in radius curves, but I wouldn't embarrass it by making it do so - that's much too small a radius. Always use the widest possible radius, and use the tightest only where you absolutely have to (as in the curves at the each end of an oval.) I'd avoid sectional track, too, and use flex as much as possible.
What I'm unsure about is whether the L/L engines will cope with the Fleischmann turnouts, since AFAIK Fleischmann wheels and track don't conform to NMRA standards and RPs, while L/L engines do. Post your experience with L/L engines + Fleischmann turnouts here, just for the record. AFAIK, L/L engines have no problems with Peco track. I've used Atlas (sectional, flex, and turnouts), and Shinohara (flex and turnouts), no problems at all with that stuff.
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:25:05 -0400, Wolf Kirchmeir

The curves are necessary to fit a loop into the available space. Normally I would avoid anything less than eighten inch radius in the open but I wanted to test the Fleishmann track system as those small radius curved points could be handy in a fiddle yard.
I wanted to have a look at Continental and US outline but I'm moving home in stages so a 'suitcase lid' layout is all I can handle at the moment.
I will report back on how I get on with different makes on the Fleishmann track
Mike
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snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote:
[ on tight curves and whether the trains can get round them ]

Barry Norman's book (I think it is his) on layout design has an example in a shed. In this design he puts the return loops OUTSIDE the shed inside closed boxes (with access panels). Thus the interior of the shed is full of layout, yet still gives continous running.
Henk Oversloot's fiddle yard on his latest layout uses some moving flexi-track as the selector to a multiple road yard. Its a sort of cross between a traverser and a ladder turnout. Takes up not much space. The geometry took some working out, but once done, it works a treat. (Henk works to FiNe standards, but the fiddleyard selector is normal N).
- Nigel
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