What you get for Christmas?

We're like those southern Californians you see on the Rose Bowl broadcast,

60F/16.6C and they're bundled up like Cobourg (Lat. 43:58N) Ontario in the depths of a February winter's day. :-)

-- Merry Christmas to all. Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

What is a "second radius" in inches or centimetres?

Wussies, the lot of you. I walked to Mic's Milk this aft, blazing sun glinting and glaring off the snow and ice, and saw couple of teenage boys come out of the store in tee shirts and bare arms. About -5C (23F). Now me, with my aging, thinning blood, needed a jacket over my shirt... :-)

Sure, I know I can find out, but why don't youse guys just give the radius, instead of using Hornby's furshlugginer "1st, 2nd, etc radius"?

"Wolf Kirchmeir" wrote

It's standard terminology in the UK, and this IS a UK group Wolf.

John.

In message , John Turner writes

However, 2nd radius is 438 mm. which workx out at 17 1/4 inches.

Because that's how most UK modellers refer to Peco Setrack and Hornby. They're not generally sold in North American hobby shops (except for Peco second radius curved points). There are some specialist importers (there's on in Port Hope ON near me), or you can buy by mail from Hatton's etc.

While the subject of radius is under discussion, is there anywhere online that I can compare the angles of various Peco points? Peco's bloody useless web site has nothing I can find...

I've opted for Code 100 track as I'll almost certainly be running some quite old stuff, and have laid my plans based on SL-91/SL-92 points - what I can't work out is if these are the same radius as an SL-97 Y point, or the SL-99 3way...

Hornby stuff may be limited, but at least the geometry is easy to understand! :-/

All Peco's Code 100 and Code 75 points with straight roads together with their large radius Y point and "long crossings" (including single/double slips) have 12-degree crossing angles. That includes SL-91/SL-92 and SL-99.

Their catalogue does not tell us the crossing angle of their "curved double radius turnouts", but assume it is 12 degrees. (It looks the same as the others in the illustrations, but I can't find my protractor and I'm not going looking for it at the moment!)

Their short crossing and small radius Y point are 24 degrees.

Things are very different for their latest line of code 83 track.

"Ian" wrote

Peco produce a series of 'full-size' turnout and crossing plans, which are ideal for planning purposes. Your local retailer should have a stock, if not they're available direct from Peco in return for one of the labels which come attached to their flexi-track and an s.a.e..

John.

Last year I got the Woolworths 'engraver' with a collet to make it a drill - really useful and not pricy. This year they got the extras, a large box of burrs and buffersm drills and engravers. All I need now is somewhere to work!

Mike

I got a new digital camera which I've already been using before chrimbo for taking pictures for my website. Then I got a wireless network router, card and laptop card so that I can start getting rid of *some* of the computer wires that festoon the house.

Alas, no model railway stuff. I made up for this by making an order to Muswell Models for some of their stuff and am preparing an order to both Knightwing and BHE for some lineside models and EMU kits.

MRN

"Wolf Kirchmeir

Yes. Agree 100% Wolf.

-- Merry Christmas to all. Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

Ah, yes the force of habit. I understand, I'm a critter of habit myself. "Habits begin as cobwebs, and end as chains", according to the Spanish. :-)

I looked at the conversion site mentioned above, and I'm still puzzled. Since the radii come out to be off the international standards (eg, 2nd radius is 17.24"), something seems to be not quite right. I'm running Hogwarts Express by Bachmann under the Christmas tree (or, rather, my grandson is. :-)) The coaches are full scale length for OO as far as I can make out, and they just barely manage on the 18" radius EZ track that came with the set. 2nd radius, 3/4" tighter, would be too tight, no question. So, where is the radius measured? Or are Hornby's coaches an inch or so shorter? (Hogwarts is franchised to Hornby in the UK, and to Bachmann over here.)

And some saftety glasses... :-)

To what "international standard" are you referring? Atlas track radii are 15", 18" and 22", which doesn't make much sense.

Bachmann MK 1s are rather tight on 2nd radius curves. Bogie swing can be increased by enlarging the slot adjacent to the fixing screw.

I assume radius is measured from the track centre. Hornby Mk 1 coaches are quoted as 265mm long; I don't know about Bachmann's.

Bachmann's are also 265mm. There is a gap of about 6mm between the inside corners of the coaches when being pulled around the 18"R track, and 3mm when pushed. Just enough. Also, it looks like the bogies are close to the limits of their swing on this curve, so I can understand the need to enlarge the slot for 2nd radius running.

The 15" and 18" curves allow for wide enough track separation to avoid sideswiping of trains passing each other. The 22" curve is the largest that will fit on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Since the largest market for sectional track was and is the USA, these are the "international standards," in that HO sectional track is made to these radii by many different makers, including the ones who are now making track with molded-on ballast (in mutually incompatible versions of course.) Generally speaking, more or less serious compromises are made with running gear to enable rolling stock to negotiate 18" radius curves. All other radii (Hornby, Marklin, etc) are proprietary.

It's pretty obvious that Marklin, Fleischmann, Hornby, Triang, etc adopted their own track geometry and wheel standards to prevent people from buying other makers' products. In the short run this works, in the long run it's lethal. (It's also very bad for the hobby as a whole.) Lionel did the same over here with respect to O scale, with the result that it went under. (The current Lionel shares only the trademark with the original company, and supplies a niche market which is a fraction of what Lionel had in its glory days.) People preferred HO for its smaller size, sure, but the real advantage was compatibility among different makers' products. For a decade or so in the mid-20th century, O scale might IMO have confirmed its "largest minority" share of the hobby and retained it to this day, if the major maker, Lionel, had conformed to NMRA standards. The smaller size of HO was at first seen as a disadvantage, actually, since it implied higher standards of precision than the "average hobbyist" was assumed to be capable of.

Looking at the chequered history of Hornby/Triang and the recent financial woes of Marklin, I think that what I call the Lionel** effect was and is at work (among many other factors, granted.) Marklin for example has a large and loyal fan base, but if it wants to grow, it must cater to those of us, the majority as it happens, who want products compatible with industry-wide standards. Marklin's undoubted superior quality isn't enough in many people's eyes to offset the disadvantage of incompatibility with NMRA/NEM standards, especially its continued use of AC. Marklin has recognised this, as its Trix marque, built to NMRA standards, shows. But it may be too little too late: the Chinese factor will likely be the spoiler, what with a BLI's GG1 retailing at less than half the price of Trix's, for example. (The GG1 is the large electric loco of the Pennsylvania Railroad that was styled by Raymond Loewy, and became an icon of the PRR. Some consider it the most beautiful electric loco in the world. IMO it ranks up there with the Swiss/Austrian Krokodil. I recall watching a GG1 sweep past me near Elizabeth, NJ, in March 1968 - it was doing about 80mph, and looked like it was enjoying a Sunday stroll. And it was _big_.)

** Considering the history of Apple, one might call it the Mac effect now.

In message , Wolf Kirchmeir writes

Well, actually, the radii made by Peco, Hornby and Bachmann are 1st. 371 mm. (14 5/8 in.) (not sold by Bachmann) 2nd. 438 mm. (17 1/4 in.) 3rd. 505 mm. (19 7/8 in.) and they are not exactly proprietary, as they are not marketed by a single supplier. In the Peco catalogue (on the OO/HO Setrack page) these are referred to as "British Standard" geometry.

On my garden layout the tracks are only 50 mm. (2 in.) apart and I don't get trains sideswiping each other on curves.

[snip] >(The GG1 is the large electric loco of the Pennsylvania Railroad that >was styled by Raymond Loewy, and became an icon of the PRR. Some >consider it the most beautiful electric loco in the world. IMO it ranks >up there with the Swiss/Austrian Krokodil.

Who was Raymond Loewy? Never heard of him.

People have their own ideas of beauty, especially when it comes to engineering products. I think the Milwaukee Road Bipolars were more beautiful than the GG1s, but neither of them was as beautiful as the most beautiful electric in the world, which has to be the Japanese Shinkansen bullet trains. Yes, I know, multiple units rather than locomotives, but that's how it is. And as for those Crocodile things, they're just plain ugly.