Boy, I didn't know a couple of simple questions can be so entertaining... LOL I appreciate everyone's advice and opinions on the welders. I've been looking at the Hobart Mig Welders and I think I am going to go with the Handler 135. I know many of you don't like the 110v, but I heavily weighed what I am going to do with this. This welder will weld up to 22ga steel as well as aluminum. I don't think I will need more than that. It also comes with the regulator and gas hose, everything but the bottle. Not a cheap unit, but it should suffice. The local welding shop kinda persuaded me to this one. I haven't bought it yet.
By the way 7014 is a stick rod that welds on contact in fact on my old sears buzz box it has a setting for " contact rods ". The flux burns away at a rate that sets the arc gap for you very nicely . Just like
7024 does only you use this on a normal amp range .
Over the years I spent a lot of time trying to find the best weave, only now that I have a constant shake do I feel content !
"JTMcC" wrote in news:zYocb.3016$ snipped-for-privacy@news01.roc.ny:
Well, to be quite honest, I've seen many a "pro" that don't know how to set their welding sources and feeders proper when welding with wire. They find this "little sweet spot" in their adjustments and stay there, and generally run one wire type, generally one you can "be all over the street" with, like 211-MP. You throw them a different wire, their screwing around for hours trying to adjust in the wire. Blows my mind. They can not use a wire in it's full "range" of use either. I've watched them run this "one setting" for everything they weld on. You throw them a wire like NR-232 that is less forgiving in having the wire out of "balance" adjustment wise, (IPM,stick out,Voltage,etc.) they're pulling their hair out. "EASY" right.
That said, the ones that scare me the most, are the ones who say wire welding is easy, but one look at their weld, you can tell, there is a big problem going on.
The problem is when "these" start building trailers, repairing frame rails, doing axle assemblies and what not. I could not tell you all the scary stuff I've seen, brought to me for repair, that was running down the freeway systems of Southern CA. One guy pulled up to me while I was on a job-site working, with a large trailer that he had Jose fab/weld a tongue assembly on. He say's, "hey, I have a small 10 minute job for ya" I looked at this trailer, it was one of the SCARIEST things I had ever seen, and it had a D3 and D4 dozer on it, that he had just been pulling down the freeway during rush hour.(obvious to me he was a slick SOB, and had been avoiding the truck stops up to this point, KNOWING it would not pass!) I had "visions" of my wife and kids behind this trailer. Over 90% of the welds were not even on the joints! They were cold, and zig-zaged all over the place. Parts of the tongue assembly had broken loose, but he still pulled it along. It was a miracle the guy did not kill anyone. Go into any truck inspection/scale (HP) in Southern Ca., and they have loads of pictures of mayham and death on the walls, many caused by guess what, ....... welding failures.
One early Sat. morning I was up early, toolin' down the freeway on my motorcycle, when I hear this big POP! to the front and right of me, and look and see this scissor lift spraying sparks everywhere, I look up in the air and see this spindle/hub/tire 50 to 60 ft. in the air. coming down and where she would bounce next in front of me I could not guess. Luckily, no one was hurt as the freeway was not dense with traffic yet, as it was 6:00.
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:37:01 GMT, "JTMcC" opined to the gathering crowd:
The limiting factor here is the 90 AMP power supply not the electrode chosen for use. To suggest in general that wire is inappropriate or inferior to stick for material above 10 gauge is both inaccurate and misleading.
The welders you are referring to have stopped because they *want* to not because they *have* to, BIG difference. The length of a stick electrode is a difference of distinct disadvantage when compared to the length of a spool of wire. If you still don't 'think' that's a factor, ask a qualified welder.
(By the way, welders that work for me and with me do not stop as often when running wire. This is the major reason for using it in the first place. Maybe you need to get around more.)
The low hydrogen properties of 7018 are lost once the rod is exposed to the atmosphere in a matter of hours even in a "dry" climate. I am not aware of a similar limitation on any wire electrode of any type.
In spite of this it is a widely used rod because of it's superior properties in comparison to other types that are not similarly limited by storage/use conditions. It's a mystery to me how you can think you know what "most" people do about anything.
In the end that is all there is to it. Just pull the trigger and move your hand. In comparison with SMAW, which was the original question, MIG requires a significantly LOWER skill level. This allows more people to reach a higher level of proficiency in a shorter length of time.
Your disagreement is with the Lincoln Electric Company and Miller also, as well as myself and anyone I know of that has trained people to do both.
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I read about rod becoming contaminated in a short time and it is an absolute lab-certified fact. I couldn't go so far as to call it junk but it isn't the same rod you bought 24 hours ago.
[...]
If I were forced to limit myself to one type of welding in a home setting it would be stick, but not because of any of the things that you have suggested.
No, it's the truth when you are talking about 110 volt machines, a hobby type buzz box has a deposition rate much greater. I did not suggest "in general that wire is inappropriate or inferior to stick for material over 10 ga" I certainly suggest that a 110 volt feeder is. We sometimes run 232 wire, in sizes to 5/64" at amperages between 200 and 300, 10 to 12 hours at a whack. I've been around when others were running .120 wire, NS3M (?) with
600 amp Lincolns maxed out. I really do have a good idea of the capabilities of wire, but that just doesn't apply to what we are talking about, a 110 volt machine.
Maybe, but as I said, I base my observation on documented time and motion studies, done for large contractors, they agree with what we casually observe, and I time just about everything we do : ). I disagree with you on that being the major reason for using wire, deposition rate, IMO is the main factor.
Of course they are, that's why we use ovens, but few use LoHi rod in the hobby world, and that can of 6013 (what seems to be a very popular rod with hobby welders) thats been on the bench in the garage for a couple of years is still just fine.
Well, if that's all there is to it, you aren't working on the type of things we are, in many fields that just might BE all there is to it.
In comparison with SMAW, which was the original question,
See the comment above about LoHi vs. hobby type rod. You are taking my comments outside the context of the conversation. There is a lot I don't know, and I don't comment on topics I don't understand, but how to store different types of rod, and the limitations of a 110 volt feeder are not hard questions. These are real basic.
this topic is getting interesting. it did sway away from the basic question a bit..."difference between arc and wirefeed " into a more scientific terretory, pretty soon we will see arc wave lenght pattern and which spectrum it belongs. (some where in the UV ?)
don't get me wrong , I LOVE reading that stuff !!!!!!!
Bob has made up his mind and was pushed toward a hobart 135. by his local sales person.... cool. I personally, believe it is an excellent starting machine for a hobby use. welding classes, and practice=== it will turn out just fine.
looking back.... if i would by today my choice would still be a 110V MIG as the first Welder , for me it is a must have and most used. because of its ease of use and PORTABILITY . I don't work with heavy gauge material yet. I only have 1 220V outlet in the garage (and 1 in the kitchen (no welding allowed there) .
I would love to get a 220V MIG, but i am not manufacturing anything on the daily bases so it would not be justified and would just sit in the corner, also a good 220V MIG is expensive.
so for those odd occasions when I need really deep penetration, I will use the 220V Stick (cheap $$)
I agree a beginer hobby welder with a newly purchased MIG machine, may do a few cold laps (weld) , but should realize it quickly and adjust to correct setting (practice)
for me it was pretty much the opposite, I started burning holes on everything and needed to adjust back a bit , ( heat , wire speed and move faster.) I am getting there.
Very interesting.... LOL I'm learning more than I asked for. Yeah, I am leaning toward the Hobart 135, but before I buy one I am going to finish the class. I may change my mind by then.
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:42:34 GMT, "JTMcC" opined to the gathering crowd:
Hey dude.
[snip high amp info]
Rate of depostion? O.K. one more time chief. Could be I don't see what you are disagreeing with here.
#1a - No one needs to switch to "a stick machine for heavier ( >10GA.) material." You won't join 10 GA. or bigger @ 90 AMPs with wire or stick. This was originally about wire vs stick at 90 AMPs or less.
If that is not what someone should understand from what you wrote, perhaps you can explain it more fully in the interest of clarity and accuracy.
If you will come in from the industrial setting and into the garage this whole thing might be easier. Without considering what I may do later, if all I want to do now is weld up lawn chairs and rain gutters it can be done @ 90 or less. Now, do I do it with wire or stick?
#2a - You don't think it's a factor in what regard? Switching rods breaks the continuity of the weld and requires a restart. Restarts are a major source of defects among experienced hands and certainly will be as much if not more for a new welder.
Nothing to disagree with here. Keeping your hood down and welding increases rate of deposition. (The fact that wire outperforms stick in this area is a given and production can get a boost even if the arc-on time stays the same.)
For what it's worth though, usually I have seen exactly the same things you are talking about. Many, many guys do stop just as often with wire. I think here the point is that you and I have the option to continue with wire where with stick we don't. What a guy actually does is a different discussion. :) If this is about process instead of people it ought to be easy to see this as an advantage of wire over stick.
If this is still about the relative merits of the processes rather than what some people might do, then it can be said that a person can store a small roll of E70 type wire in an unsealed container and use it a couple weeks later with no ill effects. The same can't be done with 7018 stick electrodes.
Again, not about what people do but just comparing options between wire and stick. I don't know what people are using at home, but I can see how storage requirements could keep a casual user away from using
70 Series stick electrodes.
Again, this is about what an individual with no experience may encounter in a home situation, not what you or I might be involved with in an industrial setting using experienced hands.
If it were as easy as breaking a light bulb with a 3# hammer they could have the cleaning lady do it on the way out. The point here is not that there is nothing to wire welding but that there is less to it than stick as far as getting handy at starting/establishing the arc and manipulating the electrode. I can't tell you it has never been different for anyone, just that I have never seen it.
Well, hehe, I haven't moved anything really. The context has stayed the same: MIG vs SMAW @ 90 AMPs or less. The statement you seem to be referring to is certainly misleading. Easy enough to fix so that it is still accurate and relevant to the question. Well, maybe.
|: 3; must use up *some types* of electrodes "sticks" or store them in a dry location |: or it they accumulate moisture and will be unsuitable for use in a short time.
The only other thing I can think of that might be worth considering would be MIG on sheet metal because that is an area that stick is just not capable of handling.
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 03:51:41 GMT, acrobat-ants opined to the gathering crowd:
Ever see a hat that said, "One size fits all"? Kind of silly if you think about it and so on it goes. Hell I wouldn't even try to order for someone I didn't know real well in a restaurant much less pick their first welder for them.
First welding I did was MIG way back when and I have some pretty vivid memories of switching over to stick. I suppose that puts a slant on it all for me. I have seen lots of guys with little or no experience get fairly proficient in a production shop using MIG in a fairly short length of time. I think we have all developed and outgrown things in our lives, just where we start when we begin something new is hard to say. Sounds like you have learned a lot and are getting some use and enjoyment out of it. It doesn't get much better than that.
Actually, one of the most popular stick electrodes for hobbyists is
7014. It is often called "easy rod" because even a neophyte can master it in short order. Since it isn't lo-hy, it doesn't need to be stored in an oven. Unlike 70 series MIG wire, you don't need to keep a bottle of shielding gas around to use it either.
It is just the lo-hy stuff that has to be kept ultra dry. Unless you customarily weld medium to high carbon steel, you really don't need to use lo-hy rods. Most things a hobbyist would weld would be mild steel. For the few times a hobbyist might need lo-hy, he can just buy a small sealed pack of half a dozen rods for that job and discard any that aren't used.
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:34:36 -0400, Gary Coffman opined to the gathering crowd:
That sounds like just the ticket for lots of people I'm sure. All but a couple of the guys I know that weld at home do it for a living also, and the two that don't have been at it long enough they've worked out most of the kinks. Thanks,
Don't plan on doing aluminum with it. Unless you have a *very* short lead made up and weld *very* thin aluminum, these hobby welders will not do it. I tried it and wasted a bunch of money.
I have the 135. It is capable of welding most anything steel you'll need. I've done 1/4" with mine on several occasions. Many here will say that you can't do it, but you can.
Good luck and have fun!! Oh, and buy an electronic helmet..makes all the difference.
I'm serious, I would like to know how many welders work for you and what kind of business you have, what you normally weld in the course of your work day.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:28:51 GMT, "JTMcC" opined to the gathering crowd:
[...]
It looks like the business in this thread is finished actually. If it helps you to know, I work with a mechanical contractor that subs under the General license of the parent company. Been doing that for going on 9 years now.
The number of welders varies according to the project of course. It can be as few as 2 single hand and run to 25 or 30 rig welders on a larger job such as an annual maintenance outage. Manloading on the largest in recent memory held at around one hundred hands but not all were welders.
What gets welded depends on the plant and the process. Much of the material around kilns/heaters is 309 stainless. That includes some schedule pipe, expendables, and structural work. Most of the rest is pretty unremarkable but there are large cast pieces from time to time and AR stuff like TriCon and their ilk.
As for your other question about who is a qualified welder, it means just that. One that has qualified for the procedure used on the project in a way satisfactory to the client. This is generally the plant engineer or one of his hands who set out what they will accept. The last outage was replacing 4x10 panels in a large duct and I believe we submitted a WPS for that ourselves which was used.
Some pipe and new construction call for AWS certs and if a hand can't come up with a current one he recertifies locally. The last big pipe job was coal piping up a tower with new burners and associated feed piping. Everyone had papers on that job. There is some repair work done where the issue of actual certification is not addressed, but it's understood that the contractor will use best practice.
In a general sense my own definition is a hand that has been at it a long time and has knowingly practiced his craft. They have been involved in a number of processes and are comfortable with them. In a good year a project involves working on something where I get to learn something interesting and new but it's not often enough it seems.
My first welding was MIG in 1976 with a small shop that manufactured piers for mobile homes. I was fortunate in that the local supply shop had an old welder working the counter and a younger guy doing sales who explained more than I remember now about slope, burn-back and all the rest. In all the people I have worked with, talked with, or trained myself I have never heard of or seen a person that took to stick as quickly as wire. Not saying it never happens but I have seen a good sampling of people.
Welding is a huge field like many others, and I don't know anyone that has gotten around the whole thing. Anyone asks what I know I usually tell them, 'not enough'. Sometimes the most important thing for me is to be aware of what I don't know. That doesn't mean I don't ever step on my lip because that still happens.
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