Difference between Arc and Wire Welding

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:42:34 GMT, "JTMcC"

Hey dude.

[snip high amp info]
Rate of depostion? O.K. one more time chief. Could be I don't see what you are disagreeing with here.
#1a - No one needs to switch to "a stick machine for heavier ( >10GA.) material." You won't join 10 GA. or bigger @ 90 AMPs with wire or stick. This was originally about wire vs stick at 90 AMPs or less.
If that is not what someone should understand from what you wrote, perhaps you can explain it more fully in the interest of clarity and accuracy.
If you will come in from the industrial setting and into the garage this whole thing might be easier. Without considering what I may do later, if all I want to do now is weld up lawn chairs and rain gutters it can be done @ 90 or less. Now, do I do it with wire or stick?

#2a - You don't think it's a factor in what regard? Switching rods breaks the continuity of the weld and requires a restart. Restarts are a major source of defects among experienced hands and certainly will be as much if not more for a new welder.

Nothing to disagree with here. Keeping your hood down and welding increases rate of deposition. (The fact that wire outperforms stick in this area is a given and production can get a boost even if the arc-on time stays the same.)
For what it's worth though, usually I have seen exactly the same things you are talking about. Many, many guys do stop just as often with wire. I think here the point is that you and I have the option to continue with wire where with stick we don't. What a guy actually does is a different discussion. :) If this is about process instead of people it ought to be easy to see this as an advantage of wire over stick.

If this is still about the relative merits of the processes rather than what some people might do, then it can be said that a person can store a small roll of E70 type wire in an unsealed container and use it a couple weeks later with no ill effects. The same can't be done with 7018 stick electrodes.
Again, not about what people do but just comparing options between wire and stick. I don't know what people are using at home, but I can see how storage requirements could keep a casual user away from using 70 Series stick electrodes.

Again, this is about what an individual with no experience may encounter in a home situation, not what you or I might be involved with in an industrial setting using experienced hands.
If it were as easy as breaking a light bulb with a 3# hammer they could have the cleaning lady do it on the way out. The point here is not that there is nothing to wire welding but that there is less to it than stick as far as getting handy at starting/establishing the arc and manipulating the electrode. I can't tell you it has never been different for anyone, just that I have never seen it.

Well, hehe, I haven't moved anything really. The context has stayed the same: MIG vs SMAW @ 90 AMPs or less. The statement you seem to be referring to is certainly misleading. Easy enough to fix so that it is still accurate and relevant to the question. Well, maybe.
|: 3; must use up *some types* of electrodes "sticks" or store them in a dry location |: or it they accumulate moisture and will be unsuitable for use in a short time.
The only other thing I can think of that might be worth considering would be MIG on sheet metal because that is an area that stick is just not capable of handling.
Cheers, Bruce
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Actually, one of the most popular stick electrodes for hobbyists is 7014. It is often called "easy rod" because even a neophyte can master it in short order. Since it isn't lo-hy, it doesn't need to be stored in an oven. Unlike 70 series MIG wire, you don't need to keep a bottle of shielding gas around to use it either.
It is just the lo-hy stuff that has to be kept ultra dry. Unless you customarily weld medium to high carbon steel, you really don't need to use lo-hy rods. Most things a hobbyist would weld would be mild steel. For the few times a hobbyist might need lo-hy, he can just buy a small sealed pack of half a dozen rods for that job and discard any that aren't used.
Gary
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opined to the gathering

That sounds like just the ticket for lots of people I'm sure. All but a couple of the guys I know that weld at home do it for a living also, and the two that don't have been at it long enough they've worked out most of the kinks. Thanks,
Bruce
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yourself
don't
burning
So give me your definition of "qualified welder", and I'll let you know if I know any.
JTMcC.

at
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that
I
I'm still waiting for your definition.
JTMcC.

is
work
a
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if
Still I wait, and while you're at it, how many welders work for you? And what exactly does your business weld? Inquiring minds want too know.
JTMcC.

for
really
out
in
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this topic is getting interesting. it did sway away from the basic question a bit..."difference between arc and wirefeed " into a more scientific terretory, pretty soon we will see arc wave lenght pattern and which spectrum it belongs. (some where in the UV ?)
don't get me wrong , I LOVE reading that stuff !!!!!!!
Bob has made up his mind and was pushed toward a hobart 135. by his local sales person.... cool. I personally, believe it is an excellent starting machine for a hobby use. welding classes, and practice=== it will turn out just fine.
looking back.... if i would by today my choice would still be a 110V MIG as the first Welder , for me it is a must have and most used. because of its ease of use and PORTABILITY . I don't work with heavy gauge material yet. I only have 1 220V outlet in the garage (and 1 in the kitchen (no welding allowed there) .
I would love to get a 220V MIG, but i am not manufacturing anything on the daily bases so it would not be justified and would just sit in the corner, also a good 220V MIG is expensive.
so for those odd occasions when I need really deep penetration, I will use the 220V Stick (cheap $$)
I agree a beginer hobby welder with a newly purchased MIG machine, may do a few cold laps (weld) , but should realize it quickly and adjust to correct setting (practice)
for me it was pretty much the opposite, I started burning holes on everything and needed to adjust back a bit , ( heat , wire speed and move faster.) I am getting there.

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Very interesting.... LOL I'm learning more than I asked for. Yeah, I am leaning toward the Hobart 135, but before I buy one I am going to finish the class. I may change my mind by then.
Bob

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Good idea, you never know what might change your mind. Billh

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[snip]
Sounds like the hot tip to me. Hope you enjoy it, welding can be a blast.
Cheers, Bruce
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Ever see a hat that said, "One size fits all"? Kind of silly if you think about it and so on it goes. Hell I wouldn't even try to order for someone I didn't know real well in a restaurant much less pick their first welder for them.
First welding I did was MIG way back when and I have some pretty vivid memories of switching over to stick. I suppose that puts a slant on it all for me. I have seen lots of guys with little or no experience get fairly proficient in a production shop using MIG in a fairly short length of time. I think we have all developed and outgrown things in our lives, just where we start when we begin something new is hard to say. Sounds like you have learned a lot and are getting some use and enjoyment out of it. It doesn't get much better than that.
Cheers, Bruce
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yourself
don't
burning
I'm serious, I would like to know how many welders work for you and what kind of business you have, what you normally weld in the course of your work day.
Thanks, JTMcC.

at
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:28:51 GMT, "JTMcC"

[...]
It looks like the business in this thread is finished actually. If it helps you to know, I work with a mechanical contractor that subs under the General license of the parent company. Been doing that for going on 9 years now.
The number of welders varies according to the project of course. It can be as few as 2 single hand and run to 25 or 30 rig welders on a larger job such as an annual maintenance outage. Manloading on the largest in recent memory held at around one hundred hands but not all were welders.
What gets welded depends on the plant and the process. Much of the material around kilns/heaters is 309 stainless. That includes some schedule pipe, expendables, and structural work. Most of the rest is pretty unremarkable but there are large cast pieces from time to time and AR stuff like TriCon and their ilk.
As for your other question about who is a qualified welder, it means just that. One that has qualified for the procedure used on the project in a way satisfactory to the client. This is generally the plant engineer or one of his hands who set out what they will accept. The last outage was replacing 4x10 panels in a large duct and I believe we submitted a WPS for that ourselves which was used.
Some pipe and new construction call for AWS certs and if a hand can't come up with a current one he recertifies locally. The last big pipe job was coal piping up a tower with new burners and associated feed piping. Everyone had papers on that job. There is some repair work done where the issue of actual certification is not addressed, but it's understood that the contractor will use best practice.
In a general sense my own definition is a hand that has been at it a long time and has knowingly practiced his craft. They have been involved in a number of processes and are comfortable with them. In a good year a project involves working on something where I get to learn something interesting and new but it's not often enough it seems.
My first welding was MIG in 1976 with a small shop that manufactured piers for mobile homes. I was fortunate in that the local supply shop had an old welder working the counter and a younger guy doing sales who explained more than I remember now about slope, burn-back and all the rest. In all the people I have worked with, talked with, or trained myself I have never heard of or seen a person that took to stick as quickly as wire. Not saying it never happens but I have seen a good sampling of people.
Welding is a huge field like many others, and I don't know anyone that has gotten around the whole thing. Anyone asks what I know I usually tell them, 'not enough'. Sometimes the most important thing for me is to be aware of what I don't know. That doesn't mean I don't ever step on my lip because that still happens.
Could be that's more than you wanted to know.
Cheers,
Bruce
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that
welders
work
You say you work "with" a mechanical contractor, I'm assuming you are an employee? I would like to know what your job is, if you are an employee.
JTMcC.

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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:31:50 GMT, "JTMcC"
[...last of topical references]

[...sig]
I think that's more than enough for you. This thread is still about the "Difference between Arc and Wire Welding". If you are looking to add to it I'd suggest that you could expand a little more, if you want to clear up your comments, in the post you have left hanging.
The only reply I saw was from Gary Coffman and he summed up things so neatly I really don't see that there is anything useful left to be said on the topic and I'll consider it closed. Have a nice day.
Bruce
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You do payroll in the office don't you? : ) I thought so.
JTMcC.

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I knew my 1/2 hour of typing, trying to answer this mans questin "Difference between Arc and Wire Welding" in the simple way , will byte in the butt , because some ofthe pros will not agree with it. Well i was not trying to out smart you ! I am just a hobby welder.

I am not about to argue with you JTMcC, how ever there is diffrent kind of "home owner and hobbyist" yes if you are a "home owner" and your home is on a farm, on 1000 acre, with farm machines, end engine hoist, and what not, then you are right , the person may need more than a 110V mig.
on the other hand if you are home owner like my self, in a suburban area , an just want to be able to fabricate / join metal parts , for your home use, and hobby enjoyment, than a 110V Mig will do just fine. as you need more than that , it can be added later on. I have not needed anything more than it just yet. I got it as a hobby welder.

well... I have to agree, no one welds a 5' long weld at ones,(normally) my point was...... with a stick welder , you have a given size of stick to work with. say ....you are stiching 2 long pieces of metal, when you are done stiching it, and ready to wled the long bead , you only have 4-5 inch left on the electrode , you are limited to work with what ever is left or get an other electrode. with a "wire feed" there is no -only 4-5 inch left - scenario. that is why i was favoring a continuos wire feed wleder.

ok , my fault on that. correction on my post .. ------moisture and stick electrodes are just fine together.

I agree welding is dangerous, no question...... but out of all the welding I have done so far , A/O , stick , and MIG/wire feed,...... wirefeed was the easiest and safest. point the wire exactly to where you want to weld , the wire can touch the work piece, close your welding hood/face shiled and pull the triger. you can't do that with stick or A/O
practice will be the key element, I never said that when a person buys a welder , he or she automaticly becomes an experienced welder, of course , he needs to practice, .....with which ever welder he buys.
JTMcC, are you trying to confuse Bob, (original poster)?

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<snip>

<end snip>
Well, to be quite honest, I've seen many a "pro" that don't know how to set their welding sources and feeders proper when welding with wire. They find this "little sweet spot" in their adjustments and stay there, and generally run one wire type, generally one you can "be all over the street" with, like 211-MP. You throw them a different wire, their screwing around for hours trying to adjust in the wire. Blows my mind. They can not use a wire in it's full "range" of use either. I've watched them run this "one setting" for everything they weld on. You throw them a wire like NR-232 that is less forgiving in having the wire out of "balance" adjustment wise, (IPM,stick out,Voltage,etc.) they're pulling their hair out. "EASY" right.
That said, the ones that scare me the most, are the ones who say wire welding is easy, but one look at their weld, you can tell, there is a big problem going on.
The problem is when "these" start building trailers, repairing frame rails, doing axle assemblies and what not. I could not tell you all the scary stuff I've seen, brought to me for repair, that was running down the freeway systems of Southern CA. One guy pulled up to me while I was on a job-site working, with a large trailer that he had Jose fab/weld a tongue assembly on. He say's, "hey, I have a small 10 minute job for ya" I looked at this trailer, it was one of the SCARIEST things I had ever seen, and it had a D3 and D4 dozer on it, that he had just been pulling down the freeway during rush hour.(obvious to me he was a slick SOB, and had been avoiding the truck stops up to this point, KNOWING it would not pass!) I had "visions" of my wife and kids behind this trailer. Over 90% of the welds were not even on the joints! They were cold, and zig-zaged all over the place. Parts of the tongue assembly had broken loose, but he still pulled it along. It was a miracle the guy did not kill anyone. Go into any truck inspection/scale (HP) in Southern Ca., and they have loads of pictures of mayham and death on the walls, many caused by guess what, ....... welding failures.
One early Sat. morning I was up early, toolin' down the freeway on my motorcycle, when I hear this big POP! to the front and right of me, and look and see this scissor lift spraying sparks everywhere, I look up in the air and see this spindle/hub/tire 50 to 60 ft. in the air. coming down and where she would bounce next in front of me I could not guess. Luckily, no one was hurt as the freeway was not dense with traffic yet, as it was 6:00.
Kruppt
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This was mentioned in passing in an earlier post, but I believe it needs to be highlighted: If you are strictly limited to 110v, then I would NOT consider a stick welder. From what I have read here and elsewhere, a 110v MIG is worth having (though limited in how thick it can readily weld), but from personal experience I would encourage you not to try learning to weld, or having to depend on, a 110v stick welder.
I am speaking, not as an expert, but rather as someone who has recently been through the learning curve that you are beginning. I did begin with a 110v stick welder, because I didn't want to mess with wiring up a 220v circuit. Yes, I learned to weld, and even made a few projects, some of which were not half bad. BUT--it is much, much, much harder to strike and keep an arc with a 110v machine, you are very limited in the rods you can use (both size and type), and 1/8" steel was about the max for which I could do a really reliably good weld (and even that was difficult). Perhaps worst of all, though, is that I learned some bad habits by using that machine, which I am now having to un-learn!
I picked up a very old 220v stick welder for $25 (had to put another $30 or so into it to make leads), and it welds sooooo much better and easier than the 110v machine I had! I wish I had had this machine on which to learn; I love having it now for projects both large and small.
HTH,
Andy

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one
under
or
Boy, I didn't know a couple of simple questions can be so entertaining... LOL I appreciate everyone's advice and opinions on the welders. I've been looking at the Hobart Mig Welders and I think I am going to go with the Handler 135. I know many of you don't like the 110v, but I heavily weighed what I am going to do with this. This welder will weld up to 22ga steel as well as aluminum. I don't think I will need more than that. It also comes with the regulator and gas hose, everything but the bottle. Not a cheap unit, but it should suffice. The local welding shop kinda persuaded me to this one. I haven't bought it yet.
Thanks again. Bob
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