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I hope it is busy cause everybody is pissed at the democrats. Mike
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It worked just fine for me.
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amdx wrote:

Finally, the Democrats have stood up for the American worker.
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Okay. You've stood up long enough, Mr. American worker. Now bend over ..................
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Steve B wrote:

No virgin there!

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wrote:

    Yeh - by forcing them to buy health insurance whether they want to or not, can afford it or not, etc.
    In the meantime ;
Big Pharma gets extended protections for 'Not raising our prices over the next ten years as much as we would have otherwise' ( ha ha - someone wanna try measuring THAT one ? )
Insurance rates are going to skyrocket 10 times worse than ever before ( there is no limit in the bill(s) on premium hikes )
The government will tell you want policies / benefits you HAVE to buy ( you get no choice any more )
They will pretend that they're going to cut Medicare costs $ 500 billion dollars ( yeh, OK - who wants to wager a dollar on THAT one ever happening ? )
And that they're going to put a 40 % excise tax on high-value policies .... starting in 2018 !!!! ( Yeh, OK - wanna bet another dollar ? ) long after Obama and crew are out of office, even after a second term.
They pretend they're going to cut doctor's rates by 20 % ( which they first put into law 10 years ago, and haven't actually done yet ), and they pretend any doctors would accept patients at that rate.
It goes on and on and on ....
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On Mar 22, 4:16pm, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

A simple overview of the actual cost of this bill, in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html
But, this accounting omits the largest 'tax' of all, the fact that 30 million people will be forcibly made to buy 'insurance', and everyone else will pay higher premiums (because they're required to buy bigger policies that cover more conditions, with fewer limitations. The CBO tallies this, and the President admits this, but Mr. Obama says it's really a reduction since you're getting more for your money. Says he).
This article touches on that factor: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/10/08/baucus-bill-would-cost-more-than-2-trillion /
It's a neat trick--now the government simply commands that you will spend your money, how much, and on what. That way they don't have count it as a cost on their bill, since they're not spending it, you are. Resist, and be imprisoned. Saves them a lot of trouble--taxing and spending is now obsolete.
Of course all that money comes from regular people, who'll now have less to spend on their own lives.
P.S. Q: Among the evil insurers, who's the largest denier of claims? A: Medicare. They deny 6.85% of claims, more than any private insurer..
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/368/reportcard.pdf , page 5. The reasons for denial, on page 13, are astounding.
James Arthur
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Obama got the Catholics on board by promising to kill the paid for Abortions that are in the bill....By executive order. Legislation by executive order is going to be the order of the day for this administration! How long do you think Abortions will remain unpaid for by the taxpayers? In many sectors it will become the method of birth control.
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Executive orders are, of course, changeable at the whim of the Executive. Government by fiat.
Anyway, the whole thing's illegal.
I count four or five ways it's unconstitutional, from mandates, to requiring you to report yourself on your tax form (self- incrimination), to preferences for "recognized religious sects" (establishment clause), to putting your personal info on the internet (6th amendment right to be secure in your papers and effects)...
14 states' Attorneys General have filed suit, mostly on the mandate I think. Florida makes a 10th amendment argument, AIUI.
-- Cheers, James Arthur
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On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 19:48:39 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

    Except ... it's a sham. And he knows it. The President can not create, nor line item veto, laws. And that's what it pretends to do - it pretends to say 'This new law that was just passed, it doesn't count, we're going to use the earlier law ( Hyde amendment ).
    Constitutionaly, this is a non-starter, and everyone knows it. Including Obama and Stupak.

    The suits are going to go on for years and years.
    In the meantime, the economic damage is done, and the left feels invigorated to do more.
    The Republicans threatened a 'nuclear response' if the Dems did this, reconciliation and all - well, now it's show time. Let's see what they got.
    My guess is - nothing.
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On Mar 23, 10:14pm, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

They're outnumbered--there's only so much they can do--but they can make a point (which the media will ignore).
The House Republicans gave a series of excellent speeches against. No coverage, natch.
James Arthur
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On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 19:48:39 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Who's going to make the fourteenth amendment argument against the Florida and Nebraska deals?
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On Mar 23, 10:20pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

We have to see if that issue survives reconciliation first. Our would- be mandaters (man daters?) tried to preempt that by giving all states the Cornhusker kickback. That, however, is in the reconciliation package, which Republicans might kill. We'll see.
I don't think that fixes anything--they'll just redraft and re-vote-- unless it crosses the Easter break. Meanwhile, the Senate bill is the fiat of the land.
-- James Arthur
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

South Dakota has filed a lawsuit also.
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Cool.
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What in the hell do mean "will become"? "Has been long standing" is more like what has actually happened.
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The Health Care debate has traversed the Orwellian plane. What Obama has proposed is a "Public Option". Notice the word "option". Nobody is going to be forced into it. Nothing is going to change for those who love their private insurance plans, they can keep it just as it is, but for the 45 million plus who have no health insurance, and even more who are under-insured, and so on, they will have an opportunity to buy into a non-profit set up, much like Medicare, except that it would be available to everyone, we're calling it "the public option". For those who are denied coverage because of "pre-existing conditions", and for those denied coverage because they changed jobs, and for those denied coverage just because the insurance company decided they don't want to cover that person any more, and anyone else who can't get health insurance, it's for THEM that the public option is being created. Nobody is going to bother the private health insurance companies, and their lackeys. But the opposition from these guys has been astounding, and there's a reason why. We're talking big bucks here, take the example of one such CEO of a major health care company, Stephen Hemsley, with his assets and stock options combined, he would easily be classified a billionaire. He makes well over a hundred thousand dollars every hour he works. And what does his work consist of? Finding any way he can to deny health care to as many people as possible who have been paying for health care coverage. And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the internet, is what is wrong with our health care system. Would someone like that want to change our system of health care? Absolutely not. So you know that these types would want to derail health care reform at any cost, or at least spend hundreds of millions of dollars in trying to.
What's bizarre is that there have been willing participants to their Orwellian strategems to derail health care reform, not surprisingly, from the Republican party and Fox News, but also from the very people who would benefit the most from health care reform, which at this point would be everybody. A public option would force the insurance companies to be more competitive, and that would drive down the price and improve health care service for EVERYONE. It would bring in much needed competition, and that is the real reason why insurance companies don't like it.
Let's cut thru all the LIES and distortions. Republicans claim that the public option will lead to rationing of health care. For your information, rationing already exists, thru the private insurance companies, and everyone is subject to it, people with private health insurance are routinely denied treatment. The only people who are safe are those with the most expensive insurance policies, such as members of Congress. Insurance companies routinely drop patients from coverage. As soon as you get sick with something that's expensive to cure, insurance companies reserve the right to drop you and tell you to drop dead. This is what they do, and this is how they get to be so rich, by taking your money when you're healthy and then deny you coverage when you are unhealthy. This is not a health insurance system, this is a scam. And guess who's wholeheartedly supporting that scam? That's right, it's the no good, dishonest, repulsive, useless, Republican "party of God".
They've lied about Obama wanting to kill old people, to kill new borns, to kill handicapped people, and on and on. They've lied about everything. They don't have a winning argument, so they lie, and they lie, and they lie. Which is what Republicans do all the time anyways.
But the best argument yet, for having the "public option" is this, for the 45 million plus Americans who have no health insurance at all, the "public option" would be better than nothing. No matter what it looks like, it would be better than nothing. For the millions who have nothing, those who have no health insurance at all, this would mean everything to them.
I've said this before, a documentary I would very highly recommend is "Sicko", by Michael Moore. And for even more information on this subject, check this site out: www.sickforprofit.com
It's always been this way, those who are in power, those who have the power, they want to keep things just the way they are, they are afraid of change, because change would lead to them losing their evil grip on things. This is exactly the way the health care industry is, and the way their loony puppets in the Republican party are.
---
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Thanks Grumpy! I appreciate the clarity of your response. But I've read a great deal of the actual bills, and they don't matchyour impressions, or the public statements made by the President and his allies. That's my complaint.
If what you said above and below were true I'd feel much differently about the bill.
Fact is, this thing is mandatory--I only have a few minutes just now, so I'll cite the legislation later. You have to prove to the IRS that you have 'acceptable' insurance. If you don't, you pay a fine, or go to jail.

That isn't true either. I have to check the language in this (Senate) bill, and see how the amendments in the reconciliation bill amended it, but the House bill provided such strict limitations on keeping your policy that, eventually, everyone would be forced out of their current coverage.
I'm also not an expert on the insurance business, but the new bill cuts the insurance companies to such tight margins--15%, which has to cover their costs and profit--that I'm not sure they can survive. (The industry-wide profit margin last year was only 2-odd percent, and that was with a 35% markup permitted.)

There are not 45 million Americans without health insurance. That figure counted 12 million illegal aliens, and a bunch of people who qualify for government-run health care (mostly Medicaid), but who haven't applied.
Take those out, and there are only 12 million who both don't have and can't afford it.

Remember that lady whom the President's been talking about, the one who dropped her insurance in January because she couldn't afford it and got leukemia two weeks later? The new heath care plan is more expensive than the plan she dropped.
Of course there will be subsidies for her in the new plan, but the plan we'll all be buying for her costs more than the one she quit. She was getting a great deal from her insurance company.
I'll get to the rest of your points tomorrow--gotta run right now.
-- Cheers, James Arthur
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On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:58:53 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

    First off, there is no 'public option' in the bill.
    Second, people WILL be forced into it. Not by anything so simple and open as a law saying 'you must buy this', but by the manipulation of the insurance markets, via government regulations and subsidies to its own program, that are going to drive the insurance companies out of business.

    and a valid one.

    Bullshit. The government is going to totally change ' your existing policy' by adding mandatory coverages that 'they think you should have' etc, the insurance companies will sit down and figure out that thay'll lose money on it, and either double the premium ( in whcih case your employer will stop offering it ), or simply stop offering it at all.

    Exactly right.

    That's the whole idea. Ultimately, the only 'option' left will be NHS / 'single payer' IOW Federal Health Insurance.
    Here's today's pop quiz - what insurance company has the highest 'rejected claims' ratio in the industry ?
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.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

I wouldn't know that currently how ever, the way I see it, I most likely would say in the future, "The Federal health Ins." if it survives!
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