Old Farts in USA, but not Europe?

| Most folks do not have sufficient reading skills to decode whether | any given policy will cover a particular activity under typical | conditions.

I don't buy that. Yes, legalese is difficult to comprehend, but it's certainly possible for normal people to understand most of it if they actually try and put some time into it.

The problem is that most people don't even bother reading this stuff.

Getting a cell phone? Sign that contract -- who cares what's in it? Starting a new job? Sure, sign that paperwork! Same goes for buying a car or anything else ... people just sign.

When I bought my house, it was quite obvious that the sellers and title company were quite annoyed at me because I insisted on reading every line of what I was signing (and if you've never bought and financed a house, it's a trip -- you have to sign like forty different documents!) If I didn't understand something, I asked (and took their answers with a grain of salt, because what matters is what it says, not what they say), which annoyed them more. But hey, I'm spending $150K here, and something like $1500 of that's going right to the title company, $3K to the realtor, and most of the rest to the seller. Quit your bitching! (Actually, the realtor was quite helpful, even though he techically worked for the seller rather than me.)

I suspect that part of the reason your salespeople couldn't read the policies they were selling is because they never had to, because nobody ever expected them to, and if somebody did expect them to, they just threw up their hands and didn't try.

In any event, I've read through my homeowner's policy quite carefully (from USAA, if anybody cares) and determined that it does cover model airplane related issues. It explicitly excludes aircraft, but it defines aircraft in such a way that model aircraft that don't carry people aren't excluded from the policy.

If you haven't read your policy or contract, do. Having your insurance company or salesman give you a summary doesn't count, because you're not signing that summary. If you really can't understand it, ask, but be aware that what matters is what the paper says, not what the salesman tells you. So if you still can't understand, have a lawyer read it to you. At least you can generally trust your lawyer to give it to you straight, since he works for you, but lawyers make mistakes too ...

Reply to
Doug McLaren
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| When a group of individuals decide to form a club and get a flying | site, there is no _requirement_ that the AMA be in any way involved. | | However, the AMA provides help to those who wish to form an AMA | chartered field | (advice, sample documents, insurance for the landowner, etc)

It's mostly about insurance, but I imagine the rest gives them some warm fuzzies too.

When a club is chartered with the AMA, they can get insurance for the field very cheaply -- it might even be free (or part of the charter fee, which isn't very much) or if not, it's like less than $100/year.

But with it comes that `AMA members only' restriction.

Basically, the field insurance is subsidized by the AMA memberships of the people who fly there.

People do the math ... I can get insurance through the AMA for < $100/year, or on my own for $5000/year (warning: made up figure!) ... and guess what people go for? Even if it ends up costing more when you add up all the needed AMA memberships ...

A brilliant move on the AMA's part, as I've said before ...

Reply to
Doug McLaren

Even better than that, Doug. it is subsidized by the dues of AMA members that don't belong to any club (~half of AMA's membership).

It has worked in the past, but that 'AMA members only' thing is a deterrent to new modelers/potential AMA members. AMA is shrinking while modeling is booming. Most newbies are opting for no organization instead of AMA. PFs have made that option viable. Seems to me that AMA needs a plan B, but if there is one the powers-that-be are doing a great job of keeping it under wraps.

Abel

Reply to
Abel Pranger

No, they actually could not comprehend what they were reading.

Ed Cregger

Reply to
Ed Cregger

The general perception of the hobby is different. In the USA I constantly observe that very strange approach to viewing the aeromodelling hobby as a "replacement" for the full-scale flight for those who have no access to the latter. This is often especially obvious in the way the commercial ads are phrased in American aeromodelling magazines (take the AMA's "Model Aviation" for example). The model fliers are essentially portrayed as losers who cannot afford to fly real planes so they have to quench their urge with toy models and accept it as being as close as they ever get to the real flight. Needless to say, something that is perceived that way will never be popular among younger people.

This idiotic attitude towards model flight is not present in Europe. In Europe model aviation is not seen in that manner and any attempts to counterpoise model flight to full-scale flight would be considered "strange" at least.

Reply to
Andrey Tarasevich

| It has worked in the past, but that 'AMA members only' thing is a | deterrent to new modelers/potential AMA members. AMA is shrinking | while modeling is booming. Most newbies are opting for no | organization instead of AMA. PFs have made that option viable. | Seems to me that AMA needs a plan B, but if there is one the | powers-that-be are doing a great job of keeping it under wraps.

I'm not even sure what form a plan B could take. For now, it seems to be ads that say `Keep on flying!' with a picture of a park flier and a very short discussion of the benefits of AMA membership.

In the past, what the AMA has had to offer (in an indirect way) has been flying fields. Without the AMA membership needed to fly at the local AMA club field, most people had no place to fly. (Most -- not all. Some have enough land, or have friends with enough land, or live out in the middle of nowhere with places to fly.)

Now, local parks are all the fields people need, and park fliers (or gliders, for that matter -- people have been flying them out of parks for decades) fly there just fine without the AMA.

If you read Model Aviation, it seems like the AMA have confused themselves with the hobby itself, and they seem to think that the _only_ reason the park fliers haven't joined up yet is ignorance of the AMA and it's goals.

I think the AMA would benefit from an attitude change, but I don't know what the solution is to their declining membership ...

My first thought is to think it's not really a problem at all to anybody but the AMA, but ultimately the AMA does fulfill a needed role in dealing with the government and such, so I just don't know ...

Reply to
Doug McLaren

There might be a difference here too - law in the US seems to require lengthy contracts. Buying and financing a house over here in Switzerland can be done with two or three pages each - and it is large print, not small. There are tendencies to require longer contracts over here too - as far as I am concerned I like the idea of common sense and contracts that are short and clear enough to be read and understood by ordinary human beings :-)

Marc

Reply to
Marc Heusser

My friend who brought me the French magazine is still a French citizen - for much the same reason. Her daughter is German by birth, so I guess they've got ALL the bases covered! :-D

Geoff

Reply to
Geoff Sanders

Ditto, Ed.

Indeed. Keep in mind that AMA insurance is secondary to any other insurance we may have, so the more liability insurance we have, the lower the exposure to loss for the AMA. Too bad our dues aren't assessed based on the amount of our personal liability policies! But, as you say, it would take a whole team of AMA lawyers and paralegals to assess the proper level of dues.

Perhaps we're just too damned litigous for model aircraft flying - or "normal" living - in the USA.

Geoff

Reply to
Geoff Sanders

That is the result of branding of the political process..its easier to tell stupid people how wonderful they are and get them to elect a stupid president, than it is to explain that clever peoplel should be allowed to BE clever.

Its not a left/right thing either. Its an accidental collusion of the wishy washy liberal with cynical manipulation by the republicans as well.

In times of deep shit, which may be upon us all in the next few years, attitudes can and will change..

Indeed.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

The club charter with the AMA affords additional insurance to cover the club officers during the preformance of their duties. Without it, I nor anyone I know would take a club officer position without it.

We formed a club specifically for the purpose of buying a small boat for aircraft retrieval during float flying. Initially, we were not chartered because we fly at public lakes and do not have a designated flying field. I was concerned about liability as an officer and was relieved to find that we would be covered by AMA if we chartered.

Reply to
IFLYJ3

| Probably the same group of cretins who don't vote in national or local | elections because they are dissatisfied with the system.

Irrelevant. Though it does seem to be a good example of the `poisoning the well' logical fallacy --

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| If it weren't for the AMA we would not have any dedicated | frequencies.

We don't have dedicated frequencies *now*.

Oh sure, part of the 72 MHz and 75 MHz bands are allocated to R/C usage, but being unlicensed users, we really have zero recourse for any sort of interference that shows up. And with pager towers showing up in-between our frequencies with hundreds of watts of power and things like wireless mikes, small paging systems (like used by restraunts) and other similar things in there as well, it's amazing that it works as well as it does.

Those pager towers are licensed. What that means is that if we interfere with them, we have to stop, even if we're following all the FCC regulations. If they're interfering with us, and they're following all the FCC regulations, then we have no recourse. You lost your plane? Too bad. It crashed into somebody's house and the whole thing burned down? So sad ... hope you're insured.

If it wasn't for the AMA's meddling in the FCC's business, we might have all been flying with spread spectrum gear for years now !$^#$!@ (For the humor impaired, that's meant as somewhat of a joke, but it's somewhat true too.)

| Fields would be virtually impossible to obtain without the AMA | insurance.

Of course. They'd just get insurance somewhere else. There might be more paperwork, and it might cost more (as it wouldn't be subsidized by AMA membership dues) but it's certainly not *virtually impossible*. Not even close.

| A safe hobby would become a disaster because of the idiots who'd | like to demonstrate their questionable skills by buzzing the | spectators, fellow pilots, and parking areas.

The AMA has magically made people not-stupid? Wow -- I had no idea!

How did the human race ever survive before the AMA arrived to save us? Oh yeah, I remember now ... people can think, and can generally figure out the difference between safe and dangerous and govern themselves even without the AMA.

Strangely enough, even with the AMA around, I've still encountered people like that. Even at AMA clubs.

| Of course the AMA is not perfect but name an organization/group that | is.

Well, once they achieve perfection, we will stop pointing out their flaws.

Though just in case you get the wrong idea ... I don't really consider myself to be an `AMA bashers'. But then again, I also realize that many of the things they're bashed for are generally true, at least to a degree.

| AFAIK, *every* aero-modeler who has made *any* significant | contribution to the hobby has been an AMA member.

`Confusing Cause and Effect'

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While this statement may be technically accurate (or have only a few exceptions), this really doesn't mean anything. It ranks right up there with `dihydrogen monoxide has been found in excised tumors of termincal cancer patients!')

Ultimately, the way things have turned out (and this is no accident), if you want to fly at an AMA chartered club field, or compete in almost any national modelling event, or break any world records and be recognized for it, you have to be an AMA member (if in the US.) What this means is that if you're serious about modelling, you tend to be an AMA member. Not because you want to support the AMA or agree with their goals or because they push you to excel or anything like that -- it's just that if you're not an AMA member, what you can do is very limited.

The people who have made very signifigant contributions to the hobby as a whole tend to be serious modelers, and serious modelers generally tend to be members of the AMA. It's not the AMA that causes them to provide signifigant contributions -- it's more the other way around. (Though really it's more that being a `serious' modeler tends to 1) require an AMA membership and 2) make people provide `signifigant contributions' to the hobby.)

| If you don't like the AMA for whatever the reason, fine, that's your | prerogative but why continue this constant barrage of fruitless, | irrational, and usually unsubstantiated negative comments? Classic | error - feeding trolls - my bad ;-)

At least it's on-topic.

Reply to
Doug McLaren

He just likes to argue. He isn't picky, he'll argue with anyone, about anything.

Ed Cregger

Reply to
Ed Cregger

Paul Harvey indicated there is one lawyer for every 278 people here in the US, whereas in Japan it's something like one lawyer for every 5,000+ people. Mystery solved :-)

Reply to
R.J. Roman

I lived in Europe for five years. It has nothing to do with AMA or anything else that would satisfy the AMA Haters here. It has to do with the fact that in Europe the general population thinks models are cool! Period! Go to one of their model events and people attend like crazy. Models are not considered toys over there. Modelers are respected 'technicians'. They are looked up to. Kids love to emulate them.

End of story

Reply to
Jim Slaughter

Jim is right on with this one. How many statues like the one in Copenhagen of a youngster flying a model have you ever seen in the US. How many museums in the US have a model collection like the Deutsches Museum in Munich?

Red S.

Reply to
Red Scholefield

Well the simple answer to that question is - the owners of the land from whom we have a lease, demand the AMA coverage to the owner, thus the club must be a "chartered" member. I don't know how widespread this requirement may be, but over the past 20+ years, it certainly has been one for our club. UNLESS we have enough affluent members to go out and buy equivalent Liability Insurance for the property owner from some independent insurance company. When I say "equivalent", most owners don't accept some piddling level of coverage.

Something to consider, since it seems to be largely ignored!

Olin McDaniel, AMA 30932, also W4PFZ Amateur Radio

Reply to
Olin K. McDaniel

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