Parkzone Spitfire- a new pilot experiment

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:16:21 -0700, Larry wrote in :

"The low wing gets the aileron."

In other words, push the aileron stick so that it "props up" the low wing.

Make a paper airplane and fly it toward yourself with one wing low. Mentally push the aileron stick in that direction. Turn the paper airplane around and you will see that you gave the right input to lift the low wing.

When you are upside down, ailerons work as they always do. They are not reversed. Rudder and elevator are backwards.

So, to make a coordinated upside-down right turn, bank the plane to the right with the aileron and give some LEFT rudder and (of course) some down elevator to maintain altitude.

For a coordinated upside-down left turn: left aileron, right rudder, down elevator.

You can, of course, leave rudder out of the equation at first and just use aileron and down-elevator to make the turn.

There are three rules for making a perfect landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are. :o(

Beware the downwind illusion: groundspeed is not airspeed. When you are flying downwind and turning to base, you need to keep up enough AIRSPEED so that you don't stall and spin in. Many of us have slowed the AIRSPEED down too much so that the GROUNDSPEED looks "normal." But it's AIRSPEED that keeps the airplane up in the air, not GROUNDSPEED.

Dial some gusty, variable winds into your simulator. You need a little more airspeed to deal with gusty conditions.

Looking forward to your field reports.

AH--take off with the engine a little bit rich. The prop speed will increase as the plane gains airspeed. If you take off with the engine peaked out, the needle setting will be too lean in the air.

Uh, unless it's an electric. In which case, nemmermind.

Marty

Marty,

I read this tip a few days ago and it works great for me! I think this is the method I will burn into my brain with the sim.

And yes, it is electric, and a hand-launch without wheels. There are some low, soft bushes where I want to fly so if I can pancake it in above them I should avoid big damage.

Larry

"Larry" wrote

Bushes can be brutal. Tall grass is best.

Plus, if you are in control enough to hit the bushes, you won't need to!

I think you are best off keeping your mind inside the cockpit, to figure out your turns.

Biggest mistake most folks make is over controlling. Best not think of it as moving the sticks, but putting pressure on them.

Any prospective student pilot would be better off obtaining a computer simulator of recent vintage and learn to fly there. What one learns flying the sim will directly apply to flying a model in the real world.

The control reversal phenomena when flying towards oneself (ailerons and rudder) is the biggest obstacle to over come. The next would be applying elevator in the proper direction when flying inverted.

I taught myself to fly by building an elaborate mental construct from all of the data I had accumulated over the years about flying full size aircraft. I managed to learn how to fly "in the cockpit" of the model early on, but even with that advantage, real time flying still required the use of tricks like, "push the aileron stick toward the down wing" and such. These things will be learned easily on a good computer sim, such as Real Flight or Dave Brown's R/C Simulator.

I understand the OP's (original poster's) desire to experience the phenomena raw and there is a good bit of merit in that attitude. It demonstrates a willingness to persist, regardless of the set backs. That is good and will go a long way toward improving the chances of your success. Still, the computer simulator gives you the opportunity to experience the effect of flaps without multiple crashes of a model.

Ed Cregger

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:53:20 -0700, Larry wrote in :

Get someone else to launch it for you at first.

The launch plan is:

-- no running with the plane

-- a firm, smooth toss with the plane level or slightly nose down.

-- Do NOT throw the plane UP in the air. It is liable to stall and come back down.

-- Do NOT throw the plane like a baseball, with follow-through. It just needs a firm push and a smooth release. Think darts and bulls-eye rather than a heave from the outfield to home plate.

Airplanes are aerodynamic.

The same shape that can split the air can split the branches of bushes.

If you get disoriented, cut the throttle and leave the sticks alone for as long as you can stand. Your goal is to avoid the graveyard spiral that will pierce soft bushes and find the hard ground.

The Graveyard Spiral

--------------------

This is what killed JFK, Jr., his wife, his sister-in-law, and thousands of other pilots.

The plane gets headed toward the ground but is also in a very slow roll.

The pilot knows that the plane is in a dive and things that "elevator makes the plane go up."

Hauling back on the elevator with full strength only makes the spiral tighter, because the elevator and wings are not oriented to lift against the tug of gravity. Instead, because of the rolling component, the tug on the elevator pulls the nose of the aircraft deeper toward the center of the spiral and accelerates the loss of lift.

More elevator = quicker spiral, quicker descent

When you get into a downward spiral, you need to neutralize ALL the sticks, stop the roll with aileron input, then gently pull the plane out of the straight dive with the elevator.

Too much elevator at too slow an airspeed for the airframe, airfoil, and wing loading can just make the airplane snap into another spiral.

Or the elevator may stall and not be able to get the fuselage to rotate so that the wing starts lifting again.

On your simulator, learn how to start and stop spins.

Starting the spin: =================

Both sticks to the same bottom corner: low throttle, full aileron, full matching rudder, full up elevator. When you are training for competition, you may want to use different inputs and different timing. For now, slamming the sticks to the corner and holding them long enough should make the plane enter a spin eventually.

Stopping the spin: =================

Neutralize the sticks.

Wait and watch.

The plane may fly itself out of the spin.

If it doesn't, it will be in a graveyard spiral. Stop the roll component with the ailerons, let the plane fall straight for a little bit to pick up airspeed, then gently pull out of the dive.

Marty

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:08:20 -0400, "Ed Cregger" wrote in :

Low wing gets the aileron.

Prop up with the low wing with the aileron stick.

Rudder for upright coordinated turn: move the rudder in the same direction as the aileron.

Rudder for inverted coordinated turn: move the rudder stick in the opposite direction as the aileron.

The problem isn't early on in inverted flight.

It's when something goes wrong, and the "save the plane" adrenalin kicks in.

"Up elevator makes the plane go up. UP UP UP!"

But the plane is upside down, and up elevator makes the plane crash and burn.

BTDT.

Beginners should have a plan for how to save the plane if something goes wrong when it's inverted.

Roll to upright.

THEN haul on the up elevator. :o)

Yep. The sims really work.

Agreed.

He can do it.

We can help. ;o)

Looking forward to the field reports.

Marty

Good tips, although I'd debate the "slightly nose down" alternative. Level toss ought to be best. The darts comparison is great, I'll remember that one :)

Jen

Mart> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:53:20 -0700, Larry wrote in

Larry, once thing that I would really insist that you do is to find the local model aircraft club near your home, especially if there is an electric/parkflyer group active.

While appreciate your willingness to learn everyhting new, do not be so proud as to not "stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before you." The people will be able to check out your airplane and to ensure that it is correctly set up and ready to fly, as well as ensuring that you can safely charge the batteries.

Have an isntructor at hand when you are going to do your first flight.

My wife's favourite line is "I'm not Rockefeller; I'm the other feller" applies.

Unless you have piles of cash and can toss away $200-plus in a single toss, do things the traditional way -- learn from someone who can teach you to fly.

Simulators are good and getting better, but they are no real substitute for hands-on experience.

If it weren't so, every airforce in the world would be loaded to the eyeballs in simulators, with a few jets around if needed. Even the USAF makes sure that "classroom time" is matched with "stick time."

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:07:57 -0600, Jennifer Smith wrote in :

Level or a little nose down is easier to deal with than a javelin heave into a stall.

A decent electric should recover quite well from a nose down toss from shoulder level.

The reason to plant that idea in your assistant's mind is to work against the feeling that UP and UP is the only way to go on launch.

I have seen electrics recover from bad throws, so the advice may be unnecessary. The power-to-weight ratio with lithium batteries is pretty impressive. I got two bad throws from a good friend with my .32-powered Gremlin and I did NOT make good recovery decisions--I needed instant down elevator and didn't provide it--instead, I tried to roll out first, which was a bad mistake with the plane thrown into a stall.

While I was replacing the fuselage, I thought through the situation. Next time out, I got three excellent throws and had three problem-free flights.

Marty

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:57:12 -0700, byrocat wrote in :

I would offer Larry that advice, too--but he already indicated that his mind is made up and that the experiment is on.

Every so often, we get some rugged-minded individuals who take joy in the thought that they can do it themselves.

They can, especially nowadays with flight sims.

And we can help them.

Back before 2000, Dale kept a journal in the group of his 9 trips to the field to teach himself how to fly. All ended in crashes, and I guess he got tired of rebuilding. He wasn't using a flight sim.

I can't find the thread now in Google. It's possible that Dale did come back and got it erased, or else I'm just not using the right search terms. All that's left is the echoes of "I told you so!" and a feeling of smug superiority. :-O

I think Larry's going to do just fine. I'm looking forward to his reports on his progress.

Marty

I learned how to fly R/C totally by myself and didn't crash a model for two or three years, can't remember exactly how long it was any more.

Now, if a person can do what I did, a computer simulator would surely allow anyone else to learn to fly on their own.

There is absolutely nothing magic about having someone yell at you when you make a mistake, which is what most instructors do. I know the student pilot is in trouble when the alleged instructor begins teaching the student pilot how to fly as though the model was a full size airplane. You know, "the throttle controls altitude" line of crap that doesn't work for models flying in a normal model environment.

You may be able to tell that I don't have a lot of confidence in the majority of "instructors". Most are incompetent at R/C and are simply on an ego trip to bolster their own ego.

If anyone has been paying attention, there are quite a few reported incidents of young student pilots practicing all winter on a sim and then soloeing on their first trip to the field. How anyone can think that computer sims aren't far superior to a human instructor is way beyond me. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, but I feel they are extremely rare exceptions these days.

No one has to agree with me. It simply isn't required and won't hurt my feelings one little bit. Flame away.

Oh, manned jet fighter/attack aircraft are in their twilight years. Soon, all flying will be done from a nice comfortable office via satellite link. We are currently training our last generation of pilots.

Luke AFB, AZ, had a simulator complex on base for training fighter pilots back in 1965. I know, I was doing building inspections back then. They used computers to control movie projectors. Looking back on it, it did present a very realistic image when you consider that computer graphics hadn't moved into much more than displaying text at that time.

The day of the fighter pilot occupying a cockpit in a flying aircraft is nearly over. I wonder if they will retain that idiotic rule of having perfect vision to fly them remotely?

Ed Cregger

wrote in

Main reason for me to prefer level toss is that whenever i tossed a stock Parkzone Stryker it tended to dive first anyway. There could be a couple of reasons for this though:

- I probably not toss as hard as a man

- The altitude might make a significant difference even at ~5000ft

- I've gotten into the habit of pushing the throttle AFTER throwing

The latter could be fixed of course, but I feel safer throwing a model that doesn't have a spinning prop near my hand or near my hair. To be precise: I do tie up my hair before flying, but escaping wisps of hair are enough to cause a lot of pain :)

Jen

Thanks for all the tips, I will practice recovering from "death spirals" on the sim. I have learned a light touch on the stick from all the years of flight sims.

I appreciate the advice about having someone show me how to fly first, but I am intrigued by the thrill of doing it on my own. Kind of like the Wright Bros, going into the unknown. I'm cheating a bit with the sim and all the tips I am getting here, but I know the first time I toss the Spit into the air I will be having a heart attack like the first time I jumped a double jump on my Yamaha.

This won't be hazardous to my health, unless I manage to hit myself with the airplane while crashing it.

If I can just get it around the pattern a few times and land it intact, the experiment worked. If the Spitfire is crashed hard, I can buy a complete replacement airframe for 90 bucks. I do not plan on throwing the transmitter in anger, so I can reuse that, and the charger should be safe in my car.

I still might chicken out, I actually have a friend with a trainer and he offered to let me go out with him while he is taking lessons.

The Spit arrives next week, so I'll keep practicing the sim in the mean time.

Is it ok to post pictures to this group as a binary attachment, or do I need to put them on my website and just post the link?

Larry

Peoria, AZ

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:40:00 -0600, Jennifer Smith wrote in :

Yes, I think there is a definite thinning out of the air at 5000 feet.

Yes, that would explain why the Stryker would tend to dive until you give it power. I was imagining a "normal" situation in which the motor is brought to full power just before the plane is thrown.

It sounds as though your technique is working fine for you.

Marty

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 22:08:46 -0400, "Morgans" wrote in :

Understood.

I had a friend with an old ball bearing .40 on his Gremlin.

He could drop it from waist high and fly away.

I'm content with my .32 and .36 engines. Against all but one friend, I win most of the time. I can't climb as fast or run as quick as someone with a heavier, more powerful engine, but my turning radius is tighter than theirs.

Marty

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:47:27 -0700, Larry wrote in :

It's an unmoderated group, so no one can stop you from posting binary attachments.

Your own news service provider or other NSPs that relay your posts to their clients might strip the post or the attachment before folks see it.

Website & link is (as I understand it) the best approach.

My website: .

Marty

Well, I don't have to worry about hair, I don't have much. I am left handed, so I'll have to throttle up before I toss it.

Larry

Sorry Ed, (Rant On) -The fact that you flew and didn't crash doesn't mean that you knew how to fly. I'd like to think that it taught you how much you didn't know . A kid with hours of sim time could probably tool a Cub around. His turns would be magnificently uncoordinated, he would have absolutely no idea of how to use the throttle, how to set up on final, control airspeed, rate of descent, how to differentiate between a spiral dive and a spin, recover safely from unusual attitudes, etc., etc. Without assistance he would probably end up in a graveyard spiral and crash and burn. The old timers learned the theory of flight, read "Spiral Airflow" and built hand launched gliders, rubber powered Wakefields, then worked their way up to IC free flight, U-Control, and eventually RC Now they are almost extinct and there's no one to replace them. So we have stick knockers who consider themselves pilots, becoming the new generation of instructors. Ultimately, those they teach will become instructors and spawn a another generation of stick knockers until no one is left who really knows how to fly (with precision).

Enough, I've said more than I intended. I must add one last thing. Soloing is not the end of training it's only the beginning. That old timer sitting on the sidelines or flying something old and slow (and being ridiculed) probably has a great deal of knowledge to impart. No one wants to listen - After all, I've soloed, and flying RC is much harder than full scale -

Ed, I was at Willy and Luke in the 50s, My gunnery instructor at Luke (F-84Gs) was "Buck"Patillo a member of the first official ? Air Force demo team, the "SkyBlazers." Bill (right wing) and Buck Patillo (left wing) were identical twins. How's that for a brace of wingmen? :)

Rant (mild) Off. Thanks for listening -

Ed, You were at Luke in the 50s? Did you ever see the AZ ANG P-51s? I just built a model of one in those markings. My model club is building a display "The History of Luke AFB" which will have a 1:48 scale model of every aircraft type based there. We are going to donate it to the base. They have already seen the display and are looking for funds to get a display case for it.

Larry