Zagi 400 conversion to Lipo and Camera setup options?

I posted a new thread here:

As I felt I have gotten way off topic from my original thread..

I'll probably ask a question or two once I eventually upgrade my motors on my Zagi in here, but for now this gets things back on track I think.

Mark

No.

The motor draws. The pack doesn't push :-)

yes.

Twinstar doesn't need a rudder really.

Hmm. it will reduce approach speed BUT its a hassle, and it also means the model is more prone to dropping a wing on slow approaches.

Keep it simple for now.

Back to Zagi Upgrade land:

Now that I'm understanding things a bit better...

I've come up with 3 motors to choose from for the Zagi conversion to brushless.. Keeping in mind a stock 400x I think is 14k rpms:

Battery: Thunder Power Pro lite 2100mah 15C (or 12C)? (on a brushed

480 motor and 5x3 prop, one person could run for 30 mins)

OPTION1: Himax 2825-2300 and the APC "E" 6 X 4 propeller (some show that this pulls 17 amps) Castle Creations PHX-25 ESC (any cheaper options?)

**Cant find this motor anywhere online? How does it compare with an Astro 020 for power? (KV?)

OPTION2:? Astro 020 $104 (gear box needed?, is this an outrunner or inrunner)

330 watt max power; 45amps? KV rating? Castle Creations PHX-25 ESC (combo = $188!) Superpowerful I'm assuming? Any cheaper alternatives with similar awesome power>? PROP?

OPTION3: (price wise liking this the best)

300DF brushless outrunner (not sure how i'll rig an outrunner to work in the zagi, but I know its been done) $30 Prop = 5x4? (draws 12 amps) Castle Creations Thunderbird 18 amp esc $33 (good enough?)

Power much better than standard 400 motor?

OPTION4:

HB2815-3000 Inrunner? KV=3000 (275 watts) too high for a zagi?

30 amp castle ESC?

OPTION5:

Some combo I havent thought of (again shooting for that target of

2200-3000KV, giving me say 30-50% more thrust or maybe 1.5-2x the power, hopefully not braking the bank)?

12C or 15C battery?

Thanks

KV=2250;

I guess the Himax motor is rather heavy.. though I think I've seen reports of this one lasting about 12 minutes.

Another option.. is this bad for the motor? .. go with a brushed setup (brushed ESC), use the same Lipo packs (2100mah), 10C: Park Zone 480 brushed motor with flux ring (or will this likely burn the motor out much quicker than if I go with an expensive brushless)?

Trying to keep cost down but double performance.

One person could fly up to 30 minutes with this brushed/lipo setup.

Another non-brushless option would be a cobalt motor. I used to run one of these on my Zagi 400X using the stock 1400 and 1700mAh nicad packs. It was pretty fast!

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I guess running this cobalt motor with a 3s 2100mah 15C battery would burn it out though?

I think I'll save my coins and get that astro brushless setup.. looks like it should be at least twice as fast as the default 400 motor.

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Any ideas on how to measure thrust? Do you just use a digital scale.. zero it out .. put the plane ontop nose down somehow and measure? Or do they sell some sort of "thrust stand" to place ontop of the scale?

Does this seem like a reasonably price watt meter?

I was also considering (later on) getting one of these data systems from Eagle Tree:

or

It appears the Seagul system runs about $383 giving you everything but GPS/Gforce, while the Micropower runs $195 or so (the seagul giving you live data as you fly).

| > > > Trying to keep cost down but double performance.

Why not fly the thing once before you worry about doubling the performance?

| > I guess running this cobalt motor with a 3s 2100mah 15C battery would | > burn it out though?

Why? As long as the prop is appropriate and the voltage is appropriate, it won't. (And note that it's the 3s part that can burn a motor out -- not the 2100 mAh or 15C part. It's the voltage that matters, not the capacity.)

`Cobalt motor' doesn't narrow things down much -- there's a lot of different cobalt motors out there.

| > I think I'll save my coins and get that astro brushless setup.. looks | > like it should be at least twice as fast as the default 400 motor.

Doubling the speed requires roughly 4x the power.

| Any ideas on how to measure thrust? Do you just use a digital scale.. | zero it out .. put the plane ontop nose down somehow and measure? Or | do they sell some sort of "thrust stand" to place ontop of the scale?

(Static) thrust is really only important for 3D fliers. You probably don't need to measure it carefully. Just hold the plane by a wing tip, hit the throttle and see what an angle it hits.

| Does this seem like a reasonably price watt meter? |

Looks OK to me (but I've no experience with this one), but since you're looking at Eagle Tree, the E-logger is quite nice. I've got one.

| It appears the Seagul system runs about $383 giving you everything but | GPS/Gforce, while the Micropower runs $195 or so (the seagul giving | you live data as you fly).

$195 for the Micropower setup? No way. It's $64 for the base unit, and $35 for the LCD. And then get the sensors you need.

But you don't *need* any of this stuff.

I'm assuming you meant get a brushless motor (cheaper one) and try it..

I have two of these already that I fly.. one is the older 400, then the newer 400x (with the base 400 6v motor and 1700mah pack)

Fubar mentioned a brushed cobalt, didnt say which one though :)

By 4x the power.. do you mean the voltage of the battery pack or a combination of factors/specs?

IE: the 1700 pack is 9.6v, while the pack I wanted to run with brushless was going to be 11.1volts.

Your saying hold the plane ontop of the scale or just hold the plane in the air and get a "feel" for thrust differences (not measuring real #'s).

I was more curious how some guys give their reports like.. gives 45oz thrust@11.1 volts and 15k rpm etc.. how they are getting these oZ figures.

I meant once you add the sensors for alt, airspeed, temp, it adds up to about $199 (and you cant view live data while in air) But I guess having this unit would save me the $60 for a watt meter if it had the capability to measure that.

Ah so true.. dont "need" it.. yes, but I'm a techy/stats person, so when I have some extra cash I will definitely be getting one of these, if not that seagul system for some cool 3d live site graphing etc.

I may also (years later) invest in a goggle/gyro setup.. I'm into the VR thing from a PC standpoint, so it seems like a reasonable extension :)

*I did see another one of your posts from awhile back, where you had one of these Zagi's and put an Astro (010?) in it?

Hence I thought it sounded like the 020 would be quite an increase in speed / aerobatics over the standard 400 motor.. but the cost is high at $150 for motor/esc.. Worth the expense or is there a less expensive brushless (maybe one in my list) that would be any easy fit (minor mods at most to make it fit) and give me maybe marginal improvement in speed/performance..

Either way I'm guessing, depending on how many amps the motor draws, I should get longer fly times (my main goal).

So in summary.. still not sure what the most economical/powerful motor (brushless) choice would be at this point, based on these goals. If I could find a brushless /esc combo for say $90 (need to save cash for my Twinstar, want to get at least 3s 2100mah 15c batteries that i can then use in the twinstar to save cash) that would be better performing and fit right in, I think I would jump on it, rather than saving for the Astro (if this is the "sport" model of them all to have).

I've searched around on all the other forums and webpages, but cant come up with one solid answer.

Cobalt is OK, but its neither as cheap nor as good as brushless these days.

Especially the 'cobalt 400's which are really quite crap.

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The other option is the mega 4 pole motors..they really are the goods. Something like a 16/15/4 on 3s will really power a zagi.

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Arent the Mega's outrunners though? Requiring some configuration modifications? More / less money.. ?

Your saying faster than even an Astro?

Cheerio

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No, they are 4 pole inrunners, so between a 2 pole and an outrunner in terms of best RPM for power.

Some say so.

The mega 16/15 range is absolutely the top choice for real power without spending a fortune, for direct drive. They don't have the ultimate power of a Hacker of Kontroniks, but they deliver at a better RPM.

Astro is also a really class motor..but its not available in so many winds, which makes it less versatile.

So inrunners are best for power over outrunners.. wasnt sure how you worded it there...?

The astro is an inrunner is it not?

Ill have to track down pricing on the mega.. so it should be cheaper than the astro from what I think i understand you are saying.

Thanks again

Well a good inrunner will beat a good outrunner mostly, but its not hard and fast, but it may have to crack 50K RPM to do it..no a useful RPM without a gearbox..the more magnet poles you have the lower the RPM that develops the best power.

Inrunners have 2 or 4 poles mainly..outrunners tend to start with 9..and go on from there..and the magnets are more 'in the breeze' which helps cool them.

Probably.

With my existing 400 brushed motor I did a little RPM test with a full

1700mah battery...

I was getting about 15.2K rpm.. I think the reported value is around

14k isnt it?

Has anyone ever charged their transmitters from a car before? IE: My older futaba doesnt have a DC adapter.. just the AC plug and all.. the battery cant easily be removed.. I guess the only option here is a DC inverter for in the car (I have a 300watt one.. I would say that would work easily ?)

Also.. anyone every charged two Nicad packs at once (IE: two dc chargers in the car into seperate cig. ports)? The recommendation has been for the motor to be off when charging I believe.. wasnt sure how say 1 hours worth of charge time b/w two of these would drain your battery..

Motor ESC confusion:

As you have seen.. I found the Astro020 here

for $150.. this included a 25 amp ESC (which I could find the motor for about $88 and the esc for $48 elsewhere), but it also included the deans plug and prop 5.5x4 and prop adapter (I'm not sure what these would cost seperately)..

I'm confused on using say a 3s 2100 or 3s 3200 15C lipo pack with this motor, as most specifications show the rpms with 8cell nimh packs.. they list the rpms at 18,700k and 20 amps.. but I would have to assume that with a 3s pack, the amp draw would be higher (how to know for sure?).. though i did see a spec of 3s/ 20amps/ 31700 rpm, another showed 3s 30 amps/ 270 watts/ 30000 rpm.. but didnt list which size prop was giving those numbers.. base question is.. how do I know whether the 25 amp esc is enough for this unit given a certain size prop..

There is also the Mega 16/15/4 (or 3) motor.. which is a better performer. the 16/15/3 or 4? They both appear to be the same price, with many combo deals going for $129 (base motor around $88 as well, usually with 25 amp escs).. again.. the 15/4 shows 8cell on a 5x2 giving 19200 rpm, 6.4 amp draw, using 18amp esc.. would a 5x5 on Lipos give higher amp draw being as the pitch is higher.. meaning I'm not sure which ESC/prop combo is the right one for this motor..

Again, I'm comparing to my 15,200 rpm I have now with 9.8oz 1700mah pack.. whereas with the Lipo it may be half that weight.. I guess I shouldnt always just look at the RPM values as comparison, but I'm not sure which of these combos would give me the best performance per price.. they both seem to be similarly priced in the end.

Of course.. if they blow away the speed I have now.. and i'm too chicken to get fancy at high speeds, I may find myself at like 1/3 throttle for most of the time anyway (lol).

I searched around for hits on 400 zagi and these motor choices, not alot of details out there.

Thanks for any help on deciding between these two/ which ESCs/prop to pair up etc..

There are many units on the market for charging your transmitter at the field. When I was flying strictly electrics I converted a rolling plastic tool box from OSH into a field box complete with a Die Hard lawn tractor battery in the bottom. I used a Hitec 12v charger (cant recall the item #) with different leads to charge flight packs and the transmitter pack if I needed to. Also had leads to charge rx batteries when slope soaring. I have also charged Nicad packs in parallel with this setup. My flight box for glow has a power panel that will charge transmitters, rx batts, and glow igniters. Your inverter idea would work but wall bugs take forever to charge anything up so the odds of you recharging at the field are slim.

At different voltages, they perform identically. The /3 is a bit hot for direct drive except in ducted fans or 2s LIPO.

you can load a /4 up to about 20-25A..its a hell of a motor.

Probably a 6x4 or 5.5x4.5 for a zagi. Should be close to 18A on nickels, more on 3s LIPO.