Dump your CAM & get Cimatron

Many folks confuse "easy to learn" with the best system for their current and future needs. Once implemented, that system of choice "works" for that user. For many it's akin to getting baptized one religion then trying to convert to another.

-- Bill

uhhh, I don't think Mastercam is easy to learn compared to other systems. I say this from the experience of training others. It's extremely hard to use mastercam right out of the box with no prior experience. The reason I blame it on is it's a legacy system. It's a hodgepodge of code stacked on code year after year. From these years of upgrades they have lost the flow of the system. There seems to be no flow. Ususally to learn a cam system good you have to get inside it, figure out the workflow the designers had in mind when writing the code. Once you get there you can start to anticipate what commands do, or how to do it, usually without any research.

Cimitron costs 15,000. the shop I'm at bought a floating licence for 2500$ that included a year of updates and 30 hrs training. There's a big difference there. 6 times the cost.

From what Iv'e looked at one version ago, cimitron would not be my choice to build molds if I had 15 grand to spend. it has automatic electrode creation..yes..but seriously, unless your trodes are relatively simple, or you don't need to edit anything, than it's magical I guess. my advice to anyone with 15,000 to spend:

Buy HsmWorks. 9,000 Buy a bad azz comp, 3,000 Spend 3,000 on training, customization, and learning curve.

Mastercam is steaming pile of shit compared to Cimatron, it ain't worth adding anything too.

Mastercam has toolpaths that are incompatible with each other, a work coordinate system that has never worked right since it was introduced late last century, nothing as basic to 3d machining as stock recognition without having asshattery like writing stl files from within toolpath verification which itself doesn't work worth a f*ck half the time to use in future remachining toolpaths, cursor blips that are actual geometry (points) on the screen to help you f*ck yourself easier, and I could go on for a 1000+ line post but you should get the point.

The company I work for has more seats of Cimatron than Mastercam and I for one am going to make the switch to Cimatron. I started some tutorials before the holidays but since then have been working 60-70 hour weeks and learning more CAD/CAM isn't exactly at the top of my priority list in what little free time I have currently. If we ever get caught up, I'll get right back at the tutorials and will be looking forward to the day when I can finally put 17 years of using Mastercrap permanently behind me. :)

Thank you, Now there's the real world experience. Pro-E/Pro Man sucks. UG - well its ok but very constrictive. All Cad & Cam software sucks. But if I had to use one again it would be Cimatron. IT ver8 from the late 90's could run rings around current MC10. God help you trying to find training on it, its no longer supported. Only old war horses like me remember those days & we are few & far between. Cimatron Electrode works great, you just don't know how to use it. Hell the people selling & demo ing it don't know how to use it. Thats been Cimatrons problem, not enough qualified people familiar with the product to train new ones. When I was trained, the best teachers were Cimatron users/customers brought in from the field. Its hard to make people understand & change after making a big investment in the wrong software. Once your on the path & a lot of time invested its too late. Cimatron & software like old Camax have been around for a long time now. The used to run only on Unix machines. Its tried & proven throughout the world & you don't hear allot of complaints about it. So go ahead & buy your HSM blow works or whatever its called with your big azz cpu , your just another horse that has been lead to the water but refuse to drink.

Thank you, Now there's the real world experience. Pro-E/Pro Man sucks. UG - well its ok but very constrictive. All Cad & Cam software sucks. But if I had to use one again it would be Cimatron. IT ver8 from the late 90's could run rings around current MC10. God help you trying to find training on it, its no longer supported. Only old war horses like me remember those days & we are few & far between. Cimatron Electrode works great, you just don't know how to use it. Hell the people selling & demo ing it don't know how to use it. Thats been Cimatrons problem, not enough qualified people familiar with the product to train new ones. When I was trained, the best teachers were Cimatron users/customers brought in from the field. Its hard to make people understand & change after making a big investment in the wrong software. Once your on the path & a lot of time invested its too late. Cimatron & software like old Camax have been around for a long time now. The used to run only on Unix machines. Its tried & proven throughout the world & you don't hear allot of complaints about it. So go ahead & buy your HSM blow works or whatever its called with your big azz cpu , your just another horse that has been lead to the water but refuse to drink.

****

Did you say Camax! Don't tease me man!

It's been posted in this newsgroup by two regulars, one of who has already posted in this thread, that once a shop has purchased a CADCAM system they don't switch CADCAM systems because of their legacy programs. Like much of what is posted in this newsgroup that's total B.S.

You are correct, Cimatron is very poorly marketed. If Cimatron were marketed properly they would target Mastercam users and show that when it comes to something as basic as drilling holes Mastercam falls to pieces. Cimatron's drilling is apparently much better thought out than Mastercam's. See my blog for details on this.

The more competitive machining gets the more shops will start switching to CADCAM systems that can get the job done quickly and efficiently. It's actually already happening as many Mastercam and Gibbscam users have started to switch. Most HSMWorks users are former Mastercam users and this includes former San Diego CADCAM owner Charles Davis who now sells HSMWorks where as he use to sell Mastercam. It also includes 10 year Mastercam employee Matt Soucy who now works for SolidCAM. SoildCAM, like Cimatron is an Israeli company and SolidCAM has a ton of former Mastercam users. While Mastercam X has continued to be a buggy program, SolidCAM has gotten better and better and the 2009 release in my opinion is going to get many more Mastercam and Gibbscam users to switch.

The FACT is that Mastercam is a very buggy program that costs shops lots to lost time. Here is an example from work today. One of our 5 seats of Mastercam would not post the feedrate correctly and instead posted a feedrate for every machining operation at 99.9999. I needed to completely reboot the computer to get Mastercam X2 MR2 SP1 to post the G code correctly. Last week on another machine creating a new WCS stopped working completely until I rebooted the computer. This is typical Mastercam behavior in X2 MR2 SP1, X3 and X3 MU1 and you can bet your last dollar that lying slimeballs like James Meyette, John Paris or Matt Finley will never post this kind of truth on the e- Mastercam clique of idiots.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Ok, I can't resist.

Cimitron? I played with it last version. Had two seperate demos, etc... Didn't like the electrode creation, it had limitations.

So you said thats because I didn't know how to use it. Maybe, but I know I can make any electrode in solidworks faster than anybody on the planet using cimitron. You couldn't fill in the blanks to drop a suare out as fast as solidworks can extract it.

The machining was no way near as sweet as hsmworks. I was able to be up and machining electrodes efficiently the first day on hsmworks. How many weeks do you need for cimitron.

A better investment yet: HsmWorks integraded to solidworks...7500.00 Solidworks .........................................2500.00 badass computer.................................2000.00 Making code with hsmworks...............Priceless. Give your boss the receipt showing you saved him 3,000.00$, and show him within 24 hours of purchase everything is installed and electrodes are machining.

Jon,

Thought you said your company was switching to Siemens CAD/CAM NX-ST after the first of the year, what happened?

Tom

First demo I saw of Cimatron was around 5 years ago roughly around the time when "E" superseded "IT". They demoed one of our extremely complex parts, a part they had never seen before and had the thing mostly split (vertical walls require manual intervention) and some electrodes pulled (including automated EDM setup sheets) in a time frame none of us (tinu) watching the demo thought possible. I was sold way back then and watching Cimatron blow away Mastercam on a day to day basis today has me yearning for more. :)

If you saw limitations, it was certainly with the people giving the demo because it sure as hell isn't with the software.

Currently looks more like a forum for trumpeting right wing propaganda than a marketing tool for CNC Software at the moment.

It's limited because it can't work with non-native solids because it's a history based modeler with no real direct modeling tools like you get with NX 6 with Synchronous Technology or Solid Edge with Synchronous Technology or in a pure direct modeler like CoCreate or SpaceClaim. As a result you have to remodel any non-native solid if you wish to make major changes to the model in SolidWorks. Vinny, like most others, doesn't seem to think this is any big deal. It is a big deal. Even the lazy NX programmer who can't be bothered to explain anything about NX in detail mentions how much time it saves him in this thread.

Its too bad PTC hasn't created quality built in CAM for CoCreate. So far PTC barely seems to have a clue one how to market CoCreate.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Yes CAMAX, still in use today. I'd use it but I'm not a unix script guru. 3Dextreme.com is very successful with it. Next best is of course Cimatron.

HOLDZEM its the best thing since sliced bread ages 5-95

I'm coming up with more things it Holdz every day:

phase 2 : the big neck sports bottles ______ /_____/\ Best Regards, /____ \\ \ Gil Pawl /_____\ \\ / HOLDZEM /_____/ \/ / / /_____/ / \//\ West Chicago, IL \_____\//\ / / USA \_____/ / /\ / \_____/ \\ \ \_____\ \\ \_____\/ download my self running demo: DEMO

Cimatron Offices Closed Friday Greetings!

The Cimatron offices will be closed Friday, April 10, 2009, in observance of Good Friday. We apologize for any inconvenience.

Sincerely,

Lisa Sterling Director of Marketing Cimatron Technologies, Inc. email: snipped-for-privacy@cimatrontech.com voice: (248) 596-9700 web:

How do you keep that old clunker Bridgeport from winding up the RPM? HOLDZEM =A9=AE of course! its the best thing since sliced bread ages 5-95 I'm coming up with more things it Holdz every day: the HOLDZEM=A9=AE king - contrary to popular belief

te:

Ok thats it, its now "official" From the desk of Kernel Cliff, from now on its Jonewsh. LOL JB & all the other common shmuck names too:-) Ya Jonewsh......... thats it. Ya gotta feel sorry for such a lost sole? Fuck he's bouncing off the

3D walls of the CAM/CAM world like a freekin wamo super ball! (loved those old balls) All ya can do is ??????

Sure doesn't seem like much relevant going on in this group lately.

anyone up for a 3D challenge?

how long to model & progrom with your system - data supplied off DXF

te:

Ok truth is 1hr Solidworks , 1hr IT13, 1hr Hurco machine time.

I'm a turtle & very slow CNC guy.

anyone like to try it?

piece-o-cake? right?

te:

Hmmm intresting. If given the 2D dxf file & the print, would you use the CAD data to build the model? or just input the dim's off the hard copy?

I used both, double checking the math/geometry as I created the model. It definitely was a fooler for me. I too looked at it & said 10min tops. wrong! Damn Solidworks, it aint no Pro/E. (good thing) I had a bitch of a time making the 1/16ball cuts, till I figured out too "cut-away" more & "fill back in" Even the full ball fillets had to be "cheated" a few thou. Another SW trick. If it won't fillet with the proper size rad. try making the R. smaller till it will regen. It may be only a few tenths! to make work.

I could have done the whole thing in IT13 no problem. Working with solids & symmetry (every knows except Jonewsh) is much more productive, plus you get a "pretty" solid model for FEA/down stream work & exporting to the rest of the world(SW does make good exportable file formats)

Think its easy? Here's the 2d dxf file, if anyone wants to play.

zip