Re: A Very Light Car

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 14:57:27 -0400, "Existential Angst"

LOL Your opinion is insanely contradictory, and made entirely worthless anyway by all your stupid evasions.
The fact is that GM went after the middle of the market. They had a lot on the line and could hardly afford reviewers complaining the Volt felt cheap or tinny. So they aimed a little above the Prius in wheel size and heft. Note that the Prius plug-in weighs about 550 pounds less than the Volt, with probably about 200 of that coming from a substantially smaller battery. That leaves about 350 pounds used to make the Volt a little bigger here and there, go three times as far on battery, perform substantially better, and have the quality to support a substantially better warranty. Its customer satisfaction numbers bear out the success of the strategy. Face it, GM knew exactly what it was doing, and you and Bonkers are a couple of empty suits pretending that baseless rants can trump reality.
What's that Lassie? Toyota is stupid too? Yeah right, none of these car companies know anything compared to you two because none of them have an invisible magic weight reduction strategy!
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wrote:

Dude, it appears contradictory to you bec you are the type of asshole that has to watch his feet when he walks. I have stated from the BEGEINNING that I am a fan of the basic volt design, but not its execution. That you find that so hard to grok speaks volumes.

Pruis C: 2500# 70 mpg, with a light foot, all the time -- just imagine if they used the Volt generator strategy.... $18K.
NOW you can blow me. Hurry, email me for my address, I'm all excited now.
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wrote:

Oh, and a 5-door, at that -- since the assholeKidding makes such a big fukn deal about doors'n'seat'n'shit....
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On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 18:29:25 -0400, "Existential Angst"

Why are you "imagining" things that are only available in your mind?

The Volt is a hatchback, as in, 5 doors, quack.
Five year ownership cost $40k, http://autos.yahoo.com/chevrolet/volt/2013/base/cost.html
Prius plug in. Five year ownership cost$38k, http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota/prius-plug-in/2013/hybrid-advanced/cost.html
IOW, about the difference anyone restricted to reality would expect.
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wrote:

IOW, just what I"d expect from a lying sleazebag. Your link uses a $40K prius hybrid, not the $18K prius c. Good one, jethro.... I'll bet you thought I wouldn't click, eh? You not only have reality problems, you have integrity problems.
Which shows that even at near the same price, the Volt is sig'ly more expensive than the more expensive prius'.
Plus, you don't even know how these bullshit sites calc the stuff out. But it don't matter, since you can't even get the models straight.
Here it is again: Pruis C: 2500# Hmmmm 1300# diff. 70 mpg, with a light foot, all the time -- just imagine if they used the Volt generator strategy.... 70 mpg is proly more than most people avg with the Volt. $18K. Hmmmm...... Half the Volt price....
Get it, now? Proly not.
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On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:38:33 -0400, "Existential Angst"

That's because you imagined it including a Volt drivetrain, quack. The C isn't a plug in at all, and the 500 pound heavier plugin version only has a third the range of the Volt. But weightwise, it, or anything that can do the Volt's job and compete with its price will end up being in the same weight range. Saying you want a Volt drivetrain, and then putting up a vehicle that doesn't have it, is stupid. Which you're apparently satisfied to continue rather than admit the obvious.

I put it there so that you or anyone could click on it and see that reality bites and there's no free lunch no matter how much you rant.

The Volt is a better car, and its longer range makes it more capable of matching more drivers' needs. 35 miles on battery vs 13 for the Prius plugin. The difference can have a huge effect on the owner's ability to keep his EV percentage up, which I thought is what you wanted. Now it seems all you really want is a hybrid, not an EV at all. So what's the problem? THOSE have been on the market for a decade already!

I only assumed they use the same criteria for each vehicle. The mileage part is barely relevant anyway because exactly how each would come out is highly variable depending on the driver's use. One guy could be 100% EV with the Prius plugin, while another could be 99% ICE. If you're one of the latter, then you don't really need a hybrid at all. Buy a goddamned Beetle and quit whining about how everybody is too stupid to build what you want.

LOL All the promises about numbers and yet you're reduced to endless bafflegab.

What I got is that all you can do is offer your imaginary vehicles against the reality of physics and the market. You're happy to pretend that apples are oranges, and so low on rhetorical ammo that you need little Bonkers to back you up with his usual brand of non sequiturs. You might as well cut to the chase and tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have a Linkedin group! I KNEW that your promised manifesto would either never appear or be a sack of dumb rants that you've already drizzled out. Your excuse about not having time to produce all those "debate ending" numbers is a joke given that you have time to keep piling the shit higher.
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wrote:

You rant like a hysterical woman.
Dude, you spent $45 grand on a 3,800# car that gets negligibly better gas mileage (and in only certain driving patterns) than an $18K 2500# hybrid. I dgaf whether the comparison is hybrid to hybrid, plug-in to hybrid, whatever.
Your breakeven ROI on that dumb deal will occur in, what, 350,000 miles???? Yeah, dat was a wise use of capital....
Yeah, the Volt is a great car.... mebbe.... but a dopey use of capital, if the goal is economy.
Oh, yeah, the prius c has a D-size battery of 1 kWhr.... so what?? In most driving scenarios it's more economical than your volt, and in the cases where it's not, well, you'll have to wait about 18 years to get yer money back.
Good one, Kidding.... Hey, why don't you manage MY portfolio, while yer pissing yours away??
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On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 00:53:08 -0400, "Existential Angst"

No, I didn't. Why are you trying to sell 45 when I've already given you independent sources estimating a five year cost of 40? Because your balls have yet to descend, and therefore you need to make up your arguments to avoid admitting that you can't rant your way into an alternate reality.

The max mpg of any hybrid is limited by its ICE mileage. The max mileage of an EV is limited by its owners driving profile, with some achieving the equivalent of hundreds of mpg AFTER counting the cost of the electricity.

Look at you. Started off declaring that you could design a 2000 pound, $18k EV. Now you're reduced to touting a hybrid-only that already weighs 2600, and imagining adding a Volt powertrain to it, even though you just said it doesn't need it. Well, let's do that anyway... second electric motor, 400 pound battery, and about 200 pounds of extra structure. Assuming it's even possible to squeeze everything into a Yaris-sized envelope, now the thing is about 3300 pounds, and easily $10k more. That's the reality of what it takes to make an EV that can leave gas stations behind entirely, AND not be limited to EV range. THAT is what you originally said you liked about the Volt.

No, I estimate about 6 years at about 10 -15k miles per year, well within the warranty. I can't say for sure partly because I don't know exactly what my EV percentage will be. It's sometimes been under 50% for weeks, then 90% for other periods. My most frequent routine trip is only 8 miles return. Next most frequent is 30 miles return. I've had some stuff on the go recently that's taken me farther afield, but that will settle down eventually and my EV percentage will stay up. But basically, I can't go wrong, it's only a matter of how far I'll come out ahead.
The other big variable is fuel prices. The higher they go the more the Volt pays off. I'm betting they'll keep going up, but then I don't have your kind of wisdom to imagine a low price carbon fiber EV on the horizon.

Yes, it was. Making well informed decisions is why I HAVE the capital and didn't need to become a lender's bitch. Know anybody who does stuff like that? Let me tell you about two friends in my group who are still actively manufacturing. One keeps succumbing to the swan song of "sign here" so he can have the latest and greatest. He has a huge shop full of formerly state of the art stuff that made great money at times but never got him very far ahead overall. His current albatross is an older laser that's probably paid for but that he can't find profitable work for. The other friend waits until the overpriced equipment purchased by people like you comes up for auction for the second or third time, and then he pays cash. He's going gangbusters, partly because he doesn't need to charge a ransom for run time, and partly because he can afford to keep individual pieces idle during slowdowns. He has more equipment than staff, can afford to update as required, and keeps everybody busy. He could have retired years ago but he seems to like the drama of being profitably creative.

The Volt is a really nice car that need not be rationalized any more than a boat or a vacation or new underwear. The fact that it can be justified is merely icing on the cake.

Then why have you been wasting so much of your time whining about wanting an EV, and making wild and stupid exaggerations to do it? Why are you talking about the Prius instead of driving one? The only things you've convinced me of are that you're not nearly as smart as I used to think you were, and that you actually believe your rants.

My portfolio is doing well, which is why I've been retired for quite a while. Many people like you who need help to get where I am hire people like me. Their profit goes up but after fees they can be even worse off. At least they know they need help, which is a step up from wasting their time pushing a bad position or refusing to admit when they're wrong.
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wrote:

But I can rant my way into elementary division. You paid *more than double* what the prius c would have cost you. With tax credits applied to both, mebbe 3x the prius.

Hundreds??? HundredSSS??? You're fullashit. The Nisan Leaf, 100-112 mpge, under the VERY best of ideal conditions The VW TDI engine can get over 55 mpg. The prius c up to 70. The minute your plaid-suited ass runs out of battery, you will be sub-70, way sub-70.

Well, the Volt does NOT leave gas stations behind entirely, unless you live 10 miles from work. Your weight calcs are bullshit. The prius c, iiuc hybrids correckly, has a full ICE drivetrain and transmission. The Volt has none of that, just the generator. Batteries notwithstanding, the Volt should be LIGHTER than the prius c. With batts, proly on par. But not with 150 cupholders.

I can see how you are well off, and your clients are broke. Do the math. You paid $20K more than for a prius c. Do the math at $4/gal. You'll be lucky to break even in 10 years, and by then you'll proly have to buy another Volt.

Because you don't know chemistry.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......... HUH??? Whuh???? Where am I????????? Oh shit, I'm still in that Volt thread......

It makes no economic sense when the cars I have are barely out of warranty. Do the math. When the time comes, I WILL get a prius c.... or whatever.

I can't imagine the wife is too pleased..... if she wadn't working before, I'll bet she's working now....
Many people like you who need help to get where I am hire

I'd slit my wrists first.
Their profit goes up but after fees they can be even

The issue was not whether the Volt is a good car. I politely disagreed with jb on that point from the VERY gitgo -- at least design/intent-wise. The issue became, from my musings on electric costs, Does the Volt make economic sense? And the answer is, *generally* no. In some instances, mebbe.
You keep harping on your biased sources, saying what a profoundly low cost-to-own the Volt is, when that's patently impossible compared to a prius c. Or even compared to a Honda Fit.
You also haven't read, apparently, how hard EV owners get banged for repairs, out of warranty..... talk about proctological violations.....
And yeah, that analysis is coming. Pity you keep harping on delivery time, cuz if you were so smart, you'd provide the analysis, as it's pretty basic. Basic, but revealing. Spreadsheeting helps..
So dude, you paid double/triple for a car that in most scenarios will give equal or worse economy than a prius c. Sell DAT to yer clients.
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On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 23:58:29 -0400, "Existential Angst"

What good is division if you start with made up numbers like the 45 one above?

I didn't want a Prius of any flavor, especially the C. It is NOT as nice a car, it's sort of an econobox aimed at city drivers, and it can't be powered by PV. I'm working toward a net zero home and transportation. If I can get enough of a refund from the power company each year, it will pay for the non-EV driving of the Volt. Overall the payoff will be long, but I'm fine with that.

Do you really think that you can convince me of yet another made up number, or are you trying to coax Bonkers' lips a little closer?
A couple weeks ago I got 41 miles of battery range from my 2012. That's more than double the one-way number you just made up. EV mileage varies depending on a lot of things, but it's rated at 35, 38 for the 2013. Unlike EV-onlys like the Leaf, you can get every last foot of the available range because you don't have to worry about being stranded. You can't help but know the Volts's battery range, and any sensible reader knows that you know.

You either don't know what you're talking about, or are making up more shit. Here are the details in case there might be any normal readers who care. http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/cells/chevy-volt-hybrid-drive-system Summary: engine, planetary (transmission), one electric motor, one electric motor/generator, three clutches, drive shafts etc.

No, it shouldn't, which is WHY it isn't, and why the Prius plugin is 3200. It's bigger than a C, but it's short 2/3 the battery of the Volt, and it's a tinnier car. Your idea that the Volt is grossly overweight is idiotic.

Idiot.

I suppose that in rantland, cupholders weight quite a bit. But here in reality though, not so much. The Volt has 4 cupholders, one for each passenger. No suspension sag has resulted, and I would guess the weight gain of having such an obscene luxury at perhaps 2 pounds. But get this, the Volt has umbrella holders built into the doors! The weight of the pockets themselves may be on par with donut holes, but what about the umbrellas that some drivers have been tempted to put in there! You need to look into that.

I don't have any clients. I don't need any because I'm retired. I have never been a financial adviser. I do get asked for financial advice occasionally, but I rarely give it, and when I have I didn't charge anything.

Well then, instead of ranting about how carbon fiber would reduce the price of the Volt, why not enlighten everyone about exactly why nobody has clued in to the secret. Answer: because you're full of shit.

You're in the thread where you quoted what Volt payments would be for you, and pretended to give financial lessons to someone who moved beyond the need to make payments on anything about 30 years ago. Based on your idiotic rants, your need to make crazy rationalizations, and your refusal to admit where you're dead wrong, I would be very surprised if you ever match my level of success.

I don't believe you. ANYBODY who takes you at your word for anything needs their head read.
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wrote:

OK, now you've hit bottom by selectively editing posts. Please don't pollute the new thread, OK??
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:12:43 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

EA continually saying it costs $45k doesn't work well either. Looks like the owner above paid about $25k. And the Prius C looks to cost ~$21-22k for most buyers. All the rest is pure pissing match between you two. First off, to my thinking the Volt is a terrific achievement for GM. I'm a wannabe owner. Too rich for my blood, but otherwise I'm the target market for the Volt. I have a couple comments about the owner above, who appears to be only the "toy" part of the target market. He did say the "toy" factor was important to him. Won't knock his "article." All info is good, and he covers a lot of ground, providing some info you won't find all in one place. Good job. But he doesn't address his commuting or overall driving patterns. Frankly, when he started talking about 400 mile trips to his cabin, and his electric rates, I really thought, "Why didn't you buy a Prius C?" You've mentioned your goal of increasing EV miles as a percentage of total miles, and that's the only way the Volt is practical for a decent chunk of the mass market. High EV miles as a percentage of total miles. For many people, including me, it would work well as the only car needed, and EV percentage would be in the +90'% range. And my base electric rate is a sweet .044 kwh. Anyway, the Volt is just too costly for me, since I'm psychologically a used car buyer. I really wish the Volt price can come down soon so it can gain market share. But even as is, at FULL price, BEFORE credits/rebates, it's not overpriced for the technology it provides to those who want it. Fuck, MSRP is $39k. People buy "unneeded" PU's, SUV's, "luxury," and "sports" vehicles costing more than that ALL DAY LONG. That's my 2 cents. All I can psychologically afford.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:25:03 -0500, Vic Smith

Agreed.

Perhaps because like me, he wanted a more substantial car, and the opportunity to get a higher EV percentage. His other ride is a Yukon. Looks like his lifetime mileage might be 62 thus far.

Yeah, it's too bad that people can't apply the rule they use about flatscreen payoff etc. to a ground breaking product that's made in America to boot.

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You're implying that it is selling, one of our car mags claims that the Nissan Leaf EV outsells it 2 to 1, is it?
--
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wrote:

Here is more ugly truth about the Chevy Volt that KiddingNoOne can't deal with:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/us-generalmotors-autos-volt-idUSBRE88904J20120910
Summed up by:
"GM's basic problem is that "the Volt is over-engineered and over-priced," said Dennis Virag, president of the Michigan-based Automotive Consulting Group"
Which is exactly what fuknKidding can't grok, cuz he's so proud of hisself for buying one.
Inneresting article, tho. $250/mo leases seem tempting. But let's see if even that justifies a Volt. Electric only driving would be about 12,000 mi/year, at about 20+ kWhrs/day of juice, at 10c/kWhr, is about a grand a year.
A Honder Fit can be BOUGHT for about $16,000. At 40 mpg, that's about $1200/yr in gas.
So in 6 years (3 lease cycles), the leased volt will be $24,000. In 6 years, the Fit will be $16,000 + $7200 in gas, or about $23,000.
So even in a sweet sweet lease deal, over 6 years, the shitty Honder Fit wins, over Chevy's big-dick plugin -- and that's a BEST CASE scenario of ONLY electric driving, no bullshit hidden fees/lease add-ons, batteries that don't age, etc. AND it assumes 10c electricity. And of course, you now OWN the Fit, you don't own shit with the Volt -- heh, which may be just as well.
Six years is about the breakeven point between the two, in a lease deal. The Volt is actually cheaper per year under 6 years, but gets steadily more expensive after 6 years.
But if you BOUGHT the volt, you'd be shit out of luck from day 1, even with FREE electricity, compared to a lowly gas-only Fit.. 'tis what 'tis.
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I lost interest in British sports cars after watching a 75 Honda Civic turn in the shortest time on a winding parking-lot race course (Autokhana?) against the numerous local rich-boy racers.
So my buddy and I compared how fast we could take the U at the incompleted end of an Interstate, my less powerful 74 Civic vs his MG Midget. We couldn't record the speeds with the unloaded inside wheels slipping, but he spun out before matching me. The Honda had a much better rough-surface suspension with no bump steer.
Despite all the bootlegger-turn abuse I gave it, it died from rust. jsw
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On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:26:46 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

There's always something faster. But a '74 or '75 Civic? Possibly the wheeziest car of its era. It could barely get out of its own way. You would not have wanted to run it against MY Midget. d8-)
As for parking-lot gymkhanas, not to do a Gunner here, but my '71 Super Beetle regularly blew off BMWs and 356C Porsches. That's a whole different thing. The fastest gymphana car in the country about that time was a Mini Minor -- not a Cooper, but a bare-bones wheezebox. Where DOT tires were not required, he ran F1 rubber and went around on rails.
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wrote:

I was certainly surprised when it won. I couldn't get his attention long enough to find out what he had done to it. My 74 topped out at about 90 and while I could stay with a 911T on a winding dirt road once it straightened out he vanished like the Enterprise in the distance. jsw
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On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 14:31:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Yes, you had compliant suspension in that thing, but if you ever got it out on a real racetrack, you might have gotten a surprise. Hondas respond well to tuning but that era was really sad in stock form. It had around 50 hp.
My Super Beetle topped out at 95, nearly stock but with a good exhaust and larger jets. That's far higher than the official spec -- the car was known to be faster, and to have more than the official 60 hp. My MG, definitely *not* stock, was good for about 110 with the 3.727 rear installed. But for racing, I ran a 4.22 rear, which accelerated a lot better but which limited top speed due to revs.
Stock hp on a 1275 Midget was 65 hp -- again, known to be underrated. Mine was a little over 100 hp based on acceleration times and comparable measured hp with cars set up similarly. The weight was about the same as your Honda; probably lower in the case of mine, which was stripped.
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wrote:

The only racing I'd try with it was on dirt or ice out in the depopulated flood control area, the playground for any yout with cheap wheels. My friends were doctors' and lawyers' sons with Porsches, BMWs and XKEs so I hadn't a prayer of competing. The guy with the Midget went on to a Mazda rotary pickup that he drove/flew at 120MPH. It helped that our fathers were well connected politically, so we got only warnings. jsw
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