Re: A Very Light Car

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:30:23 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer


That's easy to say when you aren't the engineer who has to design it to meet the design criteria -- and the price.
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It's easy for me to say because I've talked with former engineers who worked for Aptera at length.
Why do you think KiddingNoOne feels he has to slam Aptera constantly and completely ignore the Edison II? I know the reason. Do you?
It's easy for anyone to come to the conclusion that for electric cars to work they need to be very light weight. It helps when you read what the engineers have to say rather than what marketing has to say. ============================================================ iirc, that hysterical asshole kidding also implied that weight was an ADVANTAGE ito regenerative braking. Now, while this is in and of itself true, it is so thermodynamically big-picture ignerint (to wit, what was the energy required to GET that weight up to speed), Kidding will be talking about his backyard perpetual motion machine, and how it's making his electric meter run backwards......
Light weight and CdA are indeed ultra-important. Mindnumbing to think that weights of cars, across the board, have increased 50% since the '80s.... not my analysis, but from Motor Trend or Car/Driver or somesuch.... Oh, Oh, but the safety of the li'l children.....
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Too bad they can't sell anything. I wonder why? Maybe he thinks he's building race cars, and can build production vehicles out of carbon fiber and cure them in an autoclave?
Let's see...look at something built cheaper than a F1, and built to a price point...an IndyCar rolling chassis, maybe. $385,000.
That's without an engine or transmission, of course. Or a body.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:14:55 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Well, I know that Aptera went bust and sold out to the Chinese. Anything else?
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 16:04:55 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

They went Chapter 7, Jon. That's the end of the line. When they're in Chapter 7 bankrupcy, their assets get sold off. They're liquidated.
But it isn't usually engineering that kills them. Sometimes it's "bad management," but that's usually a general cover for marketing idiocy. They tried to build something that no one wants to buy.

We'll be very interested to see if either of them ever reaches production. But I doubt if they will.
We'll frack the nose off of Teddy Roosevelt on Mount Rushmore and drive CNG Civics before all but a small number of people would buy one of those wheeled insects.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 16:46:38 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

You'd make a fine automobile industry marketing exec., Jon.
Let us know when they hit 32,000 Apteras. That's how many Volts were sold since 2010. You need really deep pockets to survive on that kind of production.
I probably won't still be living, but the other members here will be interested.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 20:15:04 -0400, Ed Huntress
Nope, they'd turf him just like everybody else has. First time he got caught with his sockpuppeting act it would be game over.
"UPDATE -- July 8, 2007 -- I had to close this blog post to further comments and to remove the personal attacks between Jon and some other newsgroups readers. Before the interview, I made an agreement with Jon about the style of the interview and the way to handle it. Jon didnt respect our agreement, posting comments under fake names. Jons authentic and fake comments are all posted from the same IP address, 72.199.251.224. I can now see that my trust in Jon was misplaced." http://blog.novedge.com/2007/07/an-interview-wi.html
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:26:18 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

That was a joke.
I'm familiar with Jon's enthusiasms.
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KiddingNoOne doesn't get the joke because he is a joke... and a sad one at that.
KiddingNoOne continues to live in fantasy land and is in denial of how overweight the Chevy Volt is and why it's such a failure so far.
Time for GM to move to phase two of the Chevy Volt. Phase one has proven to be a failure and a bust.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 21:07:12 -0400, Ed Huntress

OK, I'll turn up my sarcasm radar a bit. :)
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wrote:

It's going to take a lot more than than for you to get a clue.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:52:42 -0400, Ed Huntress

Yeah, you don't have a linkedin group. :)
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:05:55 -0400, Ed Huntress

It's been apparent for quite a while that cars like the Volt, at their subsidized price at least, could serve a sizeable portion of the market. But sales were poor and I was getting skeptical that the public at large was willing to make a change. I was thinking that in general terms, at a time when purchasing power is in an inexorable decline, it would be impossible to get enough people to take any pay now to save later approach. Then there's the hair trigger knee jerk reaction to things like the Toyota gas pedal and the Volt fires. An irrational story can get legs and sink anything for no good reason. But I'm slightly more optimistic now. Hybrid sales are improving and no other shoe has dropped. Reviews remain overwhelmingly positive and the miles driven are creeping up to the point that everyone might know someone with an EV. Attitudes on gay marriage seemed to hit a tipping point seemingly overnight, so maybe there's hope for EVs as well.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 16:50:52 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

My guess is that EVs of various types will fill a small market segment, with serial plug-ins being the most viable. Now it's a matter of cost.
And, of course, watching to see what new technologies may do. It appears that we may be stalled in available battery technology for now, but there are a lot of things in the pipeline. One or more could emerge and change the whole landscape.
Meantime, GM is piling up some experience.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 20:25:30 -0400, Ed Huntress

How many on this list have actually DRIVEN an EV?
Now how many of those (very few I'm sure) actually owned the EV they drove?? (even fewer I'm sure)
Then how many actully BUILT the darn thing???????
I've done all 3.
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On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 16:41:58 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

So, what's their future, Clare?
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On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 16:56:48 -0400, Ed Huntress

Limited market and not as cheap to build as one might think. At least to build RIGHT. Controller technology has gotten much better and cheaper since I built mine.
A friend just converted a Miata to a 10 inch DC motor with 140 volt lithium batteries - 65 mile range and more than acceptable performance with a lower range. What he spent would put a pretty good dent in the price of a Volt.
I think the future for electric urban and intra-urban vehicles will be pretty good in about 10 years. The market for the "cricket on wheels" will be extremely limited. An electric Fiat 500 or Smart type car (leaf or Mistsu iLev?) should do pretty well in about 5 years.
The Chevy Volt??? If I had $40G to throw around for a "second" car I'd have one in a flash - even though it IS made by GM - and I'm not the greatest fan of GM. It would do all of my wife's driving, and most of my every-day driving - but would not handle our occaisional long distance (3000km/week) driving, nor my business hauling. The Ranger is not comfy for trips, and the Taurus is not handt to use as a truck - so we would need to compromize. Renting a car for long trips is a better option than renting a truck for my business use if we are only going to own two vehicles.
Would be fine when I get to retire like my wife - - - - -.
If the engine on the Ranger dies, there is a pretty good chance there will be another electrical conversion in my life - and there is also a Pontiac Firefly body sitting in wait if I ever get the right combination of spare time and spare cash. It needs some body repairs .
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On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 17:20:05 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Yesterday a friend who's serious about doing a conversion with lithium batteries took my Volt for an extended spin. He HATES GM but he's reevaluating. :) The thing is, he was never planning on buying a new car, so he might still do the conversion anyway. He wants to expand his current solar system to cover daily 30 mile use of an EV, and that's a tall order in his climate in winter. I think if he could own the conversion for a month he'd realize the Volt is a better way to go for him.

I swore off domestic stuff entirely a long time ago but I broke my vow to support GM's investment in the Volt.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:41:34 -0400, Ed Huntress

The Aptera certainly got free press like the Wienermobile.
I liked the concept. If it could have been built for the $20k target I think they could have had a niche market. Sales at least in the hundreds per year, something like kit cars I imagine. But they couldn't possibly make an EV version for that price, especially in relatively small numbers. And anybody who bought one at any price would have to accept the strong possibility of owning an orphan. The company's best hope would have been an ICE kitcar version. As for mass market, forget it, DOA. I can't believe they ever thought they should get government funding for a doomed concept.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

And how did they make out with their deposits, Jon?
Maybe if Aptera actually could have built those little crickets for the price they quoted, everyone would have come out better.
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