Re: A Very Light Car



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I've already told you what the problem with Apetra was, Ed. It had nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with bad management. That you or KiddingNoOne can't grasp this fact doesn't surprise me in the least.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:07:52 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Banquer

We'll have to wait and see how many of those crickets any of them sell -- if any of them ever sell any.
--
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We don't have wait to know what Gen 1 of the Chevy Volt is.
The Chevy Volt Gen 1 is way too heavy, is priced way too high (by GM's own admission) and it doesn't make economic sense to most Americans. The result: The Chevy Volt doesn't sell very well.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:42:43 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Banquer

32,000 so far.

I'm surprised they've sold that many. That's a lot of adventerous people.
Any new configuration is typically slow to take off. Chevrolet planned to build and sell 10,000 Corvettes in 1955. Ford planned for the same number of Thunderbirds. Chevy actually sold 700 Corvettes that year. Ford sold over 16,000 T'birds in the same time.
The Thunderbird was conventional -- steel body, and a scaled-down, sportier version of their sedan. The Corvette had a fiberglass body and a rounded, European sports car look unlike anything else made in the US.
In retrospect, it's not a surprise how they each did. Likewise, the Volt; a whole new mechanical configuration. Chevy had learned their lesson and didn't make the car unusual-looking, nor are the materials unfamiliar.
The crickets are going to be up against the same marketing situation, but in spades. It would take several years to overcome the weirdness factor, assuming the cars actually drive acceptably for enough people. That's a long time for any small start-up company to survive with a negative cash flow. And they'll be running on faith that enough of the public will eventually decide they like it.
So we'll have to wait and see. I think their chances are really poor, as has been the case for dozens of car-manufacturing startups.
--
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On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Oh, I think it looks fine, Jon. And they've left plenty of room for the mower blade underneath.
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On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:24:50 -0400, Ed Huntress

"Silica based fiber"! LOL Who could have guessed that somebody who used that jargon was hawking a soon to be bankrupt orphan.
That was 2009, when Leno complained about electrics being pedestrian. But what's his daily driver NOW?
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/green-garage-2011-chevy-volt/1188266/

Oooh, you're a cruel bastard, Ed. :)
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 22:37:06 -0400, Ed Huntress

I'd like to see either the Aptera or the Edison pass the safety requirements for a passenger vehicle in North America first. Crash, rollover, and all that stuff.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 16:48:38 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Yeah, 11 have been built since 1936. It's a real moneymaker. <g>
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This description was enough to make me Google around for a photo of the Aptera. I found severalm an, after looking at them, I realized that the design seemed familiar. In 1907 a gentleman named Frank Baum wrote "Ozma of Oz" and described a rather odd race ( literally ) called the Wheelers, and their resemblance to the Aptera design is remarkable:
Wheelers http://oz.wikia.com/wiki/Wheelers
I can only assume Aptera had plans for an export market... <grin!>
Frank McKenney
--
Generations of students in the social sciences have been exposed
to entertaining lectures that point out how dumb everyone else
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On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:58:51 -0500, Frnak McKenney

Frank had quite an imagination. Or else he was a frustrated car engineer born a century too early.
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DOOD!!!!!!
CHILL!!!! Yer gonna have an aneurism before you get to see my GR510!!!!!!
Mebbe it's time for Chevy to go back and simplify a bit?? Mebbe your point about the Doble applies to the Volt?
And, basically, if the super-straighforward diesel-locomotive model does NOT apply to a car, why not? I addressed this in a new thread. I don't really see where cutting edge technology is needed to generate juice and feed it to motors or batteries -- or to switch off between generator and batteries What's so cutting edge about that? I think it's a common-sense strategy.
The real technology, as you addressed, is in the batteries -- or whatever -- themselves. And mebbe some pyooter shit so people don't have to manually throw switches -- and personally, I'd rather throw the switches.
You may have missed my post about the reserve valve on motorcycle tanks -- no fuel monitoring required. The exact analogy can be applied to batteries. With, imo, no loss of, well, anything!
Also, I *like* the Volt..... or at least its basic premise of changing the trad'l hybrid strategy. But dayum, how does a simple concept get so complicated.... and heavy???
Yeah, I know, pyooters are nothing but adding circuits..... yet they got complicated..... but I don't see that analogy applying here.
Oh, btw, apropos of your other comments on power sources, etc: The diesel-locomotive strategy (or Volt's strategy, if you prefer) can be applied to ANY scenario: Use whatever hi-tech system electricity-producing fuel system you want, and simply back it up with a gas/generator system **in electrical parallel** -- not the mechanical parallel of trad'l hybrids. The electric traction motors will thus always be the final power delivery link. And is thus the elegant simplification, the common denominator.
--
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:11:51 -0400, "Existential Angst"
It was never a simple concept except in your misunderstanding that it was merely a series hybrid. It is in fact a very complicated concept.

Because it needs to be complicated to work. Yes, simple minds can envision something simpler working better. As soon as I see you driving that I'll start taking you seriously.

It is NOT heavy. It's about the weight of the battery heavier than my Camry, but has better utility. Which is an accomplishment that required some good engineering. It's about the weight of a Camaro or a Taurus, neither of which anybody thinks of as behemoths.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:11:51 -0400, "Existential Angst"

?? I'm chill. But I'm not asleep. d8-)

The Doble had a design goal and they met it. Unfortunately, it produced something they couldn't sell enough of to stay out of bankrupcy. Millionaires were in short supply, and they had enough other choices among the builders who were going bankrupt for the same reason.
The Volt, if my guess is right, will go down in automotive history as a ground-breaker that tested all sorts of ideas, and solved them as well as they could be solved. First of all, it had to look and feel like a regular American car, not like some flyweight freak that looks like it would blow away in a good storm.

First off, it's not a plug-in hybrid. That was the first idea for the whole thing. Second, because of the way railroads are graded and the operating parameters, it doesn't have to deal with a fraction of the load/speed ratio that a car has to handle.
A diesel-electric locomorive basically is a diesel with an electric transmission, not a serial hybrid.

Try it and see where you get. My recollection is that one of the best of the EV homebuilts, a Honda CRX with Li-ion batteries and ultracapacitors to handle passing and climbing hills, cost well over $100,000 to build. And that was with mass-produced, off-the-shelf components throughout and no accounting for labor costs.

'63 and earlier VWs, too. Jeez, I hated when you had to kick that lever over when you were out in the middle of nowhere.

Not quite. It would result in your frequently running the main batteries down to the bottom. Depending on battery type, that is NOT good for their service life.

Market demands and production cost. They didn't build it for people like you and me.

If it was just an IC-electric car, fuel efficiency would suck a big one. You would have both the generating and the motor losses, which are greater than for a mechanical transmission.
The Volt makes out because it has big batteries, allowing a smaller (and more efficient) IC engine, plus some of its range is all-electric.

I'm not following you. A plain serial hybrid always uses the electric traction motors for all power delivery. When the IC engine is running, you have that additional power output to drive the electric motors, in addition to the batteries.
Either way, you need a big electric motor.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 13:31:45 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Whatever. Without the first, there certainly wouldn't be a second.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:19:15 -0400, Ed Huntress

Yes, EA absolutely thinks he does! The best summary of his position is in his own words: "Chevy is apparently populated by a bunch of assholes"

No, both EA and Bonkers are happy to see new tech. EA thinks it should already be applied to lower the price and weight, as in, carbon fiber! Neither of them appreciate the economics or the engineering that it took to bring us what we already have. EA says he'll buy an econobox eventually. More power to him... except that it includes most of the very elements that he's complaining about! Bonkers is touting whatever Aptera-looking darling that will probably never make it to market as proof that current tech is bloated and grossly overweight. Other than that, the rest is merely the two of them tossing out every insult they can think of, eg, a link to a popular mechanics article means I read popular mechanics. Much the same as you've run into and endlessly countered in dozens of threads that were much longer than this one. I don't have your stamina, but I do admit to mining the depth of irrationality it takes for Usenet posters to claim that they can do better than what GM spent a billion to accomplish.
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wrote:

Very often initial designs are more complicated than necessary. I'm actually surprised at Ed's take on this. Mine is not a slur on chevy engineers per se. But it COULD be a slur on management who may not be listening to some of their engineers.
Bottom line is, you don't know, Ed don't know, and I don't know why shit is the way it is in the Volt. You swing from the dick of the status quo, and I'm simply asking why has chevy foregone a much simpler strategy. You yap yap yap yap about ICE, motor sizes, shit you basically know nothing about cuz you don't understand basic parallel circuits. When parallel circuitry (in the Volt's case) is one of the keys to its function. See below.
Mebbe there IS a good reason for the Volt complexity. But you haven't explained it, no one has. Mebbe in the new thread.

Yeah, but at $18K, and 2500#...... LOL AND at about the same net-mpg's as the Volt!!!!! You edit wonderfully....
Bonkers is touting whatever

GM spent billions pandering to assholes like you, not nec'ly solving hybrid engineering problems.
I've already outlined how you can MANUALLY accomplish all that the volt does. If there's a flaw, point it out. If not, please, finally, stfu.
And note one thing: the Pruis c et al DO need some highfalutin software et al to accomplish the ICE/battery "optimization" you mis-spoke about.
But the Volt does not operate this way: It simply runs the batteries to empty (actually it doesn't or isn't supposed to, but that's another story), and then simply switches over ICE/generator mode. What's so fukn complicated about that? What's so expensive?? What's so cutting edge?? It's an obvious common sense strategy -- the crux of which, dare I mention it again, is the diesel-electric locomotive.
--
EA



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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:38:28 -0400, "Existential Angst"

Why? Do you generally see Ed agreeing that engineers are assholes?

WTF? You've thrown everything except the kitchen sink at them!

Give it up. Admit that it takes what it takes to do the job.

What I know is that it took a billion dollars of engineering to produce the Volt. It has won engineering awards and customer satisfaction awards. It can be cost effective for a lot of people. And I know that anything you can think of has been thought of by thousands before you and didn't make the cut.

Idiot.

No, you haven't been asking anything, merely idiotically ranting.

Jesus Christ. That is the same as the shit about me not knowing what a kwh is. Do you really think you're helping your case with such stupid tactics?

Mebbe you should have faced reality and admitted that from the get go.

I've explained plenty, but you're immune to reason. But why would you need the help? Just use some common sense and ask yourself, if both Toyota and GM are doing something more complicated than you envisioned, there must be a reason for it.

What, the answers are supposed to come to you? I gave you about a dozen links! Why not read the info instead of digging a deeper hole?

No, it's going to take more than that. Weatherboarding perhaps.

No, it doesn't. And if you don't understand it by now with all the help you've been given it's because you don't want to know.
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wrote:

Only in your edited mind.

When I'm ready to swing from GM's dick, like you.

Oh, gee.....
It has won engineering awards and customer

In VERY narrow circumstances, mebbe. But not at $45K.
And

But you are still swinging....

You can't read on grade level, apparently.

Well, DO you know what a parallel circuit is?

You already explained it. You run on batteries only, and don't have to worry when they run out, cuz the ICE kicks in. Batteries first, ICE second. Volt explained it that way also, but you did such a better job!! Have I missed something?
Now, the Volt COULD in principle operate like a prius, where the batteries and ICE work together, but then.... but then.... but then.... You wouldn't be able to satchet on by gas stations, then, would you??
--
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 16:26:52 -0400, "Existential Angst"

It DOES work in parallel mode whenever the computer determines that's most efficient, you drooling nincompoop. How many ways does it have to be explained to you? Forget waterboarding, the only way to fix you is a lobotomy and a reload of the data.
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On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 12:18:37 -0700, whoyakidding's ghost

Too many conversations get off track and blow up. This one is simple: Given the technology available, the tolerable cost, the safety requirements and marketability, the Volt is the first serial hybrid anyone has been able to build in production.
Of course it's overweight and overpriced. That's typical of the first of anything. Either that, or it's too light, and it breaks. The original English Ford Cortina, for example. They purposely built it too light, and then added metal until it didn't fold up. The MGB took the opposite tack. It was heavier than it had to be. Neither company had built a unibody before, and no one usually gets it right the first time out (Except for Nissan, but they just copied a BMW <g>)
I owned two cars that weighed around 1500 lb. or less, and there was a time I swore I'd never own anything that weighed over 2000. But everything has changed, particularly safety, and all cars are heavy -- except for a Lotus Elise. My 2-door Focus hatchback coupe weighs 2600 lb., fer chrissake. It looks like it should weigh 1000 lb. less.
In general, I think that all hybrids are interim cars; two complete powertrains just can't survive. But we don't have any better fuel economy target right now than a serial hybrid. One hopes they'll get lighter and cheaper. But I don't see any hybrid coming in as light as a comparable all-IC car.
The real question will be how much fuel they'll consume, and what type. Weight is important but it's not the only issue. There are some really heavy cars out there that have great highway economy, even with IC only. For example, the Audi A6 2.0T Quattro: 5,100 pounds gross weight, 33 mpg.
That's better than my 2600 lb. Focus.
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