Re: A Very Light Car

'Looks like it was fun, C+. But where would I put my stereo speakers?

I lashed eveything I owned onto the back of my MG Midget, and into the cracks and crevices. It looked like a dung beetle hurtling down the road.

In message , whoyakidding's ghost writes

You're implying that it is selling, one of our car mags claims that the Nissan Leaf EV outsells it 2 to 1, is it?

But I can rant my way into elementary division. You paid *more than double* what the prius c would have cost you. With tax credits applied to both, mebbe 3x the prius.

Hundreds??? HundredSSS??? You're fullashit. The Nisan Leaf, 100-112 mpge, under the VERY best of ideal conditions The VW TDI engine can get over 55 mpg. The prius c up to 70. The minute your plaid-suited ass runs out of battery, you will be sub-70, way sub-70.

Well, the Volt does NOT leave gas stations behind entirely, unless you live

10 miles from work. Your weight calcs are bullshit. The prius c, iiuc hybrids correckly, has a full ICE drivetrain and transmission. The Volt has none of that, just the generator. Batteries notwithstanding, the Volt should be LIGHTER than the prius c. With batts, proly on par. But not with 150 cupholders.

I can see how you are well off, and your clients are broke. Do the math. You paid $20K more than for a prius c. Do the math at $4/gal. You'll be lucky to break even in 10 years, and by then you'll proly have to buy another Volt.

Because you don't know chemistry.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......... HUH??? Whuh???? Where am I????????? Oh shit, I'm still in that Volt thread......

It makes no economic sense when the cars I have are barely out of warranty. Do the math. When the time comes, I WILL get a prius c.... or whatever.

I can't imagine the wife is too pleased..... if she wadn't working before, I'll bet she's working now....

Many people like you who need help to get where I am hire

I'd slit my wrists first.

Their profit goes up but after fees they can be even

The issue was not whether the Volt is a good car. I politely disagreed with jb on that point from the VERY gitgo -- at least design/intent-wise. The issue became, from my musings on electric costs, Does the Volt make economic sense? And the answer is, *generally* no. In some instances, mebbe.

You keep harping on your biased sources, saying what a profoundly low cost-to-own the Volt is, when that's patently impossible compared to a prius c. Or even compared to a Honda Fit.

You also haven't read, apparently, how hard EV owners get banged for repairs, out of warranty..... talk about proctological violations.....

And yeah, that analysis is coming. Pity you keep harping on delivery time, cuz if you were so smart, you'd provide the analysis, as it's pretty basic. Basic, but revealing. Spreadsheeting helps..

So dude, you paid double/triple for a car that in most scenarios will give equal or worse economy than a prius c. Sell DAT to yer clients.

Here is more ugly truth about the Chevy Volt that KiddingNoOne can't deal with:

Summed up by:

"GM's basic problem is that "the Volt is over-engineered and over-priced," said Dennis Virag, president of the Michigan-based Automotive Consulting Group"

Which is exactly what fuknKidding can't grok, cuz he's so proud of hisself for buying one.

Inneresting article, tho. $250/mo leases seem tempting. But let's see if even that justifies a Volt. Electric only driving would be about 12,000 mi/year, at about 20+ kWhrs/day of juice, at 10c/kWhr, is about a grand a year.

A Honder Fit can be BOUGHT for about $16,000. At 40 mpg, that's about $1200/yr in gas.

So in 6 years (3 lease cycles), the leased volt will be $24,000. In 6 years, the Fit will be $16,000 + $7200 in gas, or about $23,000.

So even in a sweet sweet lease deal, over 6 years, the shitty Honder Fit wins, over Chevy's big-dick plugin -- and that's a BEST CASE scenario of ONLY electric driving, no bullshit hidden fees/lease add-ons, batteries that don't age, etc. AND it assumes 10c electricity. And of course, you now OWN the Fit, you don't own shit with the Volt -- heh, which may be just as well.

Six years is about the breakeven point between the two, in a lease deal. The Volt is actually cheaper per year under 6 years, but gets steadily more expensive after 6 years.

But if you BOUGHT the volt, you'd be shit out of luck from day 1, even with FREE electricity, compared to a lowly gas-only Fit.. 'tis what 'tis.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:06:54 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote as underneath my scribble :

Well the XI was a lot roomier than say the Lotus 7 but you would have got miles more into your Midget! We put a radio in the Lotus XI but only any use when the roar of the engine and tyres were silent!! Very light cars have their disadvantages but the fun and need for speed outweigh the comforts - when your' young enough!! :) . Id hate to try insure such a beast for the road nowdays! C+

I didn't even try putting a radio in my Midget. I had a Stebro muffler on it when it wasn't racing. I couldn't have heard the radio anyway. Most of the time, I had the heater out of it, too.

I'm sorry to hear about the insurance situations in Canada and the UK. Here in New Jersey, I could get liability insurance on your car, cheap. Collision would be iffy -- we have an insurance inspector make a judgement on that, for homebuilts and exotics. It would be expensive, in all likelihood, or it would have a large deductable.

But we have a way around it. If the car is over 25 years old, we get "historic and street rod" registration (cheap). And if we don't drive it more than some mileage limit -- 5,000 miles per year, I think, with my insurance company -- insurance, again, is cheap.

This all varies by state. And "cheap" is relative, of course. d8-)

What good is division if you start with made up numbers like the 45 one above?

I didn't want a Prius of any flavor, especially the C. It is NOT as nice a car, it's sort of an econobox aimed at city drivers, and it can't be powered by PV. I'm working toward a net zero home and transportation. If I can get enough of a refund from the power company each year, it will pay for the non-EV driving of the Volt. Overall the payoff will be long, but I'm fine with that.

Do you really think that you can convince me of yet another made up number, or are you trying to coax Bonkers' lips a little closer?

A couple weeks ago I got 41 miles of battery range from my 2012. That's more than double the one-way number you just made up. EV mileage varies depending on a lot of things, but it's rated at 35, 38 for the 2013. Unlike EV-onlys like the Leaf, you can get every last foot of the available range because you don't have to worry about being stranded. You can't help but know the Volts's battery range, and any sensible reader knows that you know.

You either don't know what you're talking about, or are making up more shit. Here are the details in case there might be any normal readers who care.

Summary: engine, planetary (transmission), one electric motor, one electric motor/generator, three clutches, drive shafts etc.

No, it shouldn't, which is WHY it isn't, and why the Prius plugin is

3200. It's bigger than a C, but it's short 2/3 the battery of the Volt, and it's a tinnier car. Your idea that the Volt is grossly overweight is idiotic.

Idiot.

I suppose that in rantland, cupholders weight quite a bit. But here in reality though, not so much. The Volt has 4 cupholders, one for each passenger. No suspension sag has resulted, and I would guess the weight gain of having such an obscene luxury at perhaps 2 pounds. But get this, the Volt has umbrella holders built into the doors! The weight of the pockets themselves may be on par with donut holes, but what about the umbrellas that some drivers have been tempted to put in there! You need to look into that.

I don't have any clients. I don't need any because I'm retired. I have never been a financial adviser. I do get asked for financial advice occasionally, but I rarely give it, and when I have I didn't charge anything.

Well then, instead of ranting about how carbon fiber would reduce the price of the Volt, why not enlighten everyone about exactly why nobody has clued in to the secret. Answer: because you're full of shit.

You're in the thread where you quoted what Volt payments would be for you, and pretended to give financial lessons to someone who moved beyond the need to make payments on anything about 30 years ago. Based on your idiotic rants, your need to make crazy rationalizations, and your refusal to admit where you're dead wrong, I would be very surprised if you ever match my level of success.

I don't believe you. ANYBODY who takes you at your word for anything needs their head read.

I see you are winning friends and influencing people all over the place. What a dick.

R wink, if it doesn't weigh 3800#, jerkoff is not innerested. KiddingHimself actually thinks planetary gears and a transmission are necessary in a gas generator setup. If he's right, and that's actually what's in the Volt, GM needs a little schooling as well. They should mebbe ride Amtrack now and then, see how diesel locomotives do it.

Other industry savvy critics have pegged the Volt: Overpriced, over-engineered. Planetary gears.... give me a fukn break....

I take it that you don't know anything about any of the Prius drivetrains either.

"Toyota's familiar Hybrid Synergy Drive system. A planetary "electronic CVT" gearset blends electric and combustion power as and when it's needed."

Yeah, Toyota is as stupid as GM according to you, right? How is it that you're here typing out horseshit instead of heading one of their engineering departments?

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:50:10 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote as underneath my scribble :

Interesting Ed - No doubt about it, the US gets it a lot righter than we do in many areas! C+

Wrong again. From my previous link:

"the motor/generator again couples to the ring gear but now?in "charge-sustaining" mode?the smaller electric motor is also affixed to the running gas engine. In effect, the gas engine supplies power directly to the transmission, which is just like a parallel hybrid."

"The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power."

I am no longer astonished at how little you bother to research a subject before pretending to know more about it than the manufacturer. That is a hallmark of a crank.

OK, let me re-phrase it: The fundamental design of the Volt does not REQUIRE it to blend energy mechanically.

From my previous link:

Which is stupid on it's face. It totally defeats the elegance of gas-generator premise.

Oh I see yer into popular mechanics. So was I, when I was 13.

You're right, I didn't research it, cuz I just assumed chevy woulda designed it the right way. Now that you're in web research mode, look at the energy trail of a diesel-electric locomotive, and you'll see that,, at least in the locomotives I'm familiar with, you gots a diesel generator and traction motors.... none of that parallel hybrid planetary gear transmission bullshit.

So not only did you buy an over-priced, over-engineered bullshit car, you bought one that was POINTLESSLY overengineered. And you still haven't asked why Volt overcomplicated the fundamental premise of the gas-generator-traction motor concept. Oh, I know why you don't ask.... cuz you couldn't find the answer pre-packaged for you on a website.

So now you have shown me that the Volt has NO redeeming qualities. It took a great idea and shot 8 out of 10 toes off that idea. I didn't know that, and I appreciate your pointing alladat out for me.

The justification for buying a Chevy Volt for those that aren't blowhards like KiddingNoOne is quite simple:

I like the car and I decided to buy it.

For KiddingNoOne the justification is:

I purchased a Chevy Volt because it's a great investment.

I have lots of money and you don't.

I'm smarter than you, etc.

If you disagree with my logic your acting just like like Mark Wieber.

Anyone who questions my logic is broke and on welfare, too poor to afford it, stupid, "bonkers".... new reasons that I'll continue to invent.

Yes, it does. Both Toyota and GM have determined that it takes 2 electric motors and an ICE, and multiple modes of operation to get best efficiency. Your saying "locomotive" over and over doesn't change the reality.

It's not stupid, it's actual award winning engineering

as opposed to your idiotic ranting.

IOW, as I've been telling you from the start, you don't know what you're talking about and continue to put your conclusions before your research.

Everybody knows the basics of how locomotives work. It doesn't translate to vehicles no matter how times you keep saying it.

... that works perfectly well on the Prius C for example that you touted, although you'll never grasp the contradiction.

JESUS! Will you guys knock it off? A Volt is NOT a "gas-generator-traction-motor" design. Those locomotives are NOT plug-ins. They use that configuration because it's proven to be a better way to couple an IC engine to the very different operating conditions of a railroad locomotives. There have been a few straight-diesel locomotives, in the US and in the UK. They were failures because of inflexibility in diesels of those sizes, and because of the enormous difficulty of coupling them to the wheels through a mechanical transmission.

The Volt is a plug-in serial hybrid with some parallel-hybrid features

-- 'way complicated, but because of limitations in current technology, not because GM's engineers like to pretend they're Mercedes-Benz engineers, using three parts when two parts will do.

Like all of the various hybrids so far, it's a glimpse into the future. There are some owners for whom it makes reasonable sense. Like all EVs of all types, it makes no economic sense for most of us. But it's a step in a direction that will make sense for more people, in more circumstances, as the concept is tested in the field and refined.

But neither does a Cadillac or Porsche SUV make any sense. Or any Cadillac or Porsche, for that matter. Sports Car Graphic ran a spoof many decades ago, in which they showed a MG-TD pickup truck and a Ferrari GTO halftrack. Little did they suspect that Porsche would build a half-assed truck for yuppies some day. I'm waiting for a Maserati RV or an Aston Martin dump truck next...

So all electric vehicles are interim steps, which appeal to people who like the concept and like to try new ideas. Assuming that we may have cheap electricity from alternative sources some day, they're one way to deal with the distribution problem. Right now, the efficiencies don't work out. But they may well do so.

Anyone who thinks that hydrogen fuel cells are a better prospect isn't paying much attention. Almost all hydrogen now is produced from reformed natural gas. Talk about hack jobs! And the prices, and failures due to contamination...Jesus. There isn't a significant pipeline in America that will carry hydrogen without being completely rebuilt. Good luck with that.

As for the likelihood that we'll be able to use alternative electric sources, versus other sources of liquid fuels in IC, consider that all of the liquid fuel promises have failed. Every one. Not that we don't have some cellulosic ethanol in the pipeline some day, or something derived from another source, but, so far, those options don't look any better than EVs. And natural gas IC -- well, if you don't want to go very far and if you don't need a trunk. Like EVs, they make sense for some people.

The Li-ion battery is the biggest problem. There is some promise for aluminum-air and some of the nano-structure carbon batteries, but they're in the lab, along with algae-derived liquid fuels and controlled nuclear fusion. In fact, they're ahead of fusion.

Somebody has to take the first step, in every technology. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Gunner was wondering why the Doble steam car isn't around today. It worked great -- very reliable and set all kinds of records. But it cost 40 times as much as a Ford and much more than a Duesenberg or Rolls Royce. Nice try, Doble. It ain't for us peons.

The Volt is highly subsidized and the economics of operating it are all skewed out of shape. That's what we do with new technologies in a lot of cases. That's what it takes. It doesn't bother me at all. Without it, we wouldn't have jet planes, rural electrification, or hydroelectric power. None of them made any economic sense at first. Some of them still don't. The market isn't up to the job.

I haven't followed all of your arguments, but you're arguing over engineering details that are largely cutting-edge stuff that is hardly known. You won't need the parallel-hybrid complications when there's a cost-effective battery or battery/capacitor system that will handle the necessary discharge rates. You won't have cost efficiency until the capacity is large enough to run on electricity almost all the time, and the IC engine size can be further reduced. These are engineering projects that are being developed as we speak.

Meantime, we have the Volt -- the first effort by any manufacturer to make a serious plug-in serial hybrid that almost makes it, and that seems to work out for quite a few users.

What is there to argue about? Do you think you have the engineering problems worked out better than GM? Or do you think we should all just forget it, and stick with what we have? The Model T was pretty good at getting us around. Maybe we should have stuck with it, eh?

The Chevy Volt is way too heavy.

There is a reason I named this thread: A Very Light Car

DOOD!!!!!!

CHILL!!!! Yer gonna have an aneurism before you get to see my GR510!!!!!!

Mebbe it's time for Chevy to go back and simplify a bit?? Mebbe your point about the Doble applies to the Volt?

And, basically, if the super-straighforward diesel-locomotive model does NOT apply to a car, why not? I addressed this in a new thread. I don't really see where cutting edge technology is needed to generate juice and feed it to motors or batteries -- or to switch off between generator and batteries What's so cutting edge about that? I think it's a common-sense strategy.

The real technology, as you addressed, is in the batteries -- or whatever -- themselves. And mebbe some pyooter shit so people don't have to manually throw switches -- and personally, I'd rather throw the switches.

You may have missed my post about the reserve valve on motorcycle tanks -- no fuel monitoring required. The exact analogy can be applied to batteries. With, imo, no loss of, well, anything!

Also, I *like* the Volt..... or at least its basic premise of changing the trad'l hybrid strategy. But dayum, how does a simple concept get so complicated.... and heavy???

Yeah, I know, pyooters are nothing but adding circuits..... yet they got complicated..... but I don't see that analogy applying here.

Oh, btw, apropos of your other comments on power sources, etc: The diesel-locomotive strategy (or Volt's strategy, if you prefer) can be applied to ANY scenario: Use whatever hi-tech system electricity-producing fuel system you want, and simply back it up with a gas/generator system **in electrical parallel** -- not the mechanical parallel of trad'l hybrids. The electric traction motors will thus always be the final power delivery link. And is thus the elegant simplification, the common denominator.

OK, now you've hit bottom by selectively editing posts. Please don't pollute the new thread, OK??

Yes, EA absolutely thinks he does! The best summary of his position is in his own words: "Chevy is apparently populated by a bunch of assholes"

No, both EA and Bonkers are happy to see new tech. EA thinks it should already be applied to lower the price and weight, as in, carbon fiber! Neither of them appreciate the economics or the engineering that it took to bring us what we already have. EA says he'll buy an econobox eventually. More power to him... except that it includes most of the very elements that he's complaining about! Bonkers is touting whatever Aptera-looking darling that will probably never make it to market as proof that current tech is bloated and grossly overweight. Other than that, the rest is merely the two of them tossing out every insult they can think of, eg, a link to a popular mechanics article means I read popular mechanics. Much the same as you've run into and endlessly countered in dozens of threads that were much longer than this one. I don't have your stamina, but I do admit to mining the depth of irrationality it takes for Usenet posters to claim that they can do better than what GM spent a billion to accomplish.