Anyone notice eltism/foolishness in engineering schools?

I happen to come across a brochure from the U of Minn. (I graduated many years ago, and my children went to the U, so I get these brochures extolling the U's virtues and requesting a check.)

They are trying to be a leading University, and their plan towards excellence of the past few years has revolved around cutting undergrads in order to get the best undergrads. It has not worked out, as evidenced by the increased loss of their top professors. (Hey, its not my plan - and after writing it down just now, it does seem to be a pretty stupid way to get top profs - by allowing only the best students in and then later having these desired profs cut half the best of the best.) So the Uof Minn wants more money to continue along the same course. And I thought how oddly theoretically academic that it hasn't worked but they want to keep doing it.

And then the brochure numbers regarding their engineering school struck me as kind of odd and contra-logical. So I thought I'd post it and see if anyone else has seen this at other universities.

some background-

First, to apply to the engineering school as a freshman at that University, you must be in the top 25% of your HS class and have an ACT around 26. And of those who apply, according to the President of the U last month, only one in four makes it in. (Proudly said by them as evidence of their high standards, BTW.)

Second, much of the grading in IT is done on a curve of those in the particular class.(I suppose it doesn't matter if it wasn't, the 5-15-40-15-5 a-b-c-d-f ratio holds, I assume). Thus, a C means you are average, i.e., among the 40% of a class. Except this class is the best of the best, as they say.

Third, to get into the dept of mechanical engineering at the U of Minn after completing two years of lower division, you must have a B- in your technical grades (math, physics, chemistry). No matter your other grades, like was required in the balanced engineer of old: it has now been set up to skew so pure-geeks advance. So if you do not have the B- in the techs, you will not be allowed into Mech Eng. upper division. On face value, seems logical - except the curve was on the hand-picked best of the best. So you must score much better than the select group's median C to stay in their school.

Fourth, you may apply only once in your lifetime to upper division (I know, it sounded stupid, but I checked - and that is absolutely correct.), and it must happen at 60 credits earned. Be way above average at the U of Minn in order apply to the school, and you can get rejected by the ME department for not being above average enough in your above average group, and you will never get a degree at the U of Minn. It seems to somehow go against basic engineering, and does it say something about the engineering approach of such a school? (land-grant, at that)

The contra-logic inherent in the system is from having a relatively high entrance standard and then having to be better than the average of that highly-selected group to advance. It automatically cuts (no, actually it rejects from the University) over half of the highly-selected group. Now, if the entry standards were lower, say comparable to non-U engineering colleges, then maybe - maybe, it might make sense. OK, at first blush it seems to say - You need to have a solid technical background to advance. But that is NOT what it says, given the highly select entry requirements - it actually says that the professors the department selects are not able to teach that very select group they started with, or it says that we will start with a select group and dump over half based not on overall ability, but on physics and math skills.

Kind of like giving an engineer 100 bars of special T&G stainless steel and having him ruin 50 because he can't get them machined properly. It's not like I gave him 100 bars of crap steel and he had to cull them. He ruins half the best we can get and thinks nothing of it. It somehow seems very un-engineering-like to waste the best material on those who profess to be engineers and cannot use it properly

Looking at the mechanical engineering school logic another way, if the top 100 professors of mechanical engineering from Caltech, Stanford, and MIT are accepted and take classes at the U of Minn, over half will be rejected and not allowed to advance to upper division because they are unable to meet the standards. (Hey, MIT profs apparently just can't cut it at the U of Minn Dept of Mechanical Engineering undergrad program!)

Oddly enough, I didn't find that as being the most egregious problem with their solicitation for money. It seems that the cut for selection for upper division is entirely done on technical credits, and not done on other engineering skills like leadership, management skills, business acumen, foreign language, understanding of surroundings, and those skills gained not from calculus, but rather from non-technical courses in other schools at a University.

What I am going to get in my firm is not the engineers of old, who can meet and talk with people and run projects, but rather the blind techie chosen by the blind techie professors who seem to have some theory that lower division tech ability translates into upper division creativity and then into good engineers. The old saw about unscrewing the new engineers for a year after school before they are useful is going to have to be revised.

So my question is - Do other schools use this method of very high entry selection standards and then a reselection to reject 50-60% at the halfway point? Or is the U of Minn plowing new ground in this apparent nitwitdom?

thanx....

Reply to
--
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What is the actual percentage of juniors who make it to the MechE dept upper divisoin in their Jr. years? I bet that the median grade was not a C but more like a B..grade inflation being what it is...

Reply to
<pja

actually, I did some checking with the department, and it seems there is no discernable grade inflation at that school. My daughter saw none during her time there (double major- two degrees- graduated 03 ) If there were skewing, I would see their requirement as more reasonable.

And I checked on other enginnering majors- many of the other engineering schools at the U of Minn only require a C to get into upper division.

Reply to
--

Do you really want to buy products or pay for systems produced by C students?

High school grades have probably inflated so quickly that fairly serious selection is required. Those first-year classes are full of kids seduced by the glitzy reputation of engineering....

Bill

Reply to
Bill Shymanski

"--" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

I went to a very posh uni in the UK that is not too bad for engineering. It was rather hard to get into in the first place, and after 1 term (10 weeks) about 10% of our intake was thrown out. And so it went. I don't think we saw 50% attrition in the first two years, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear it was that after 3.

Personally I have wasted far too much of my life dealing with STUPID engineers to worry about those who couldn't make it. The fewer, better, engineers that graduate, the better.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Reply to
Greg Locock

You know what you call the guy who graduated at the bottom of his med school class?

Doctor.

:-)

and maybe I wasn't clear enough about the point - that a C student there means they are in the middle of their class and that the middle of a class of geniuses (or doctors) is still a genius (or a doctor). And, that there is more to engineering than undergrad math and undergrad physics, and if the school requires other courses then the techncial, then they should also be counted.

It is not like the middle of the class is a B, they are taking anyone in off the street, and they are selecting communicators and creative thinkers and problem solvers with aptitudes for the technical. If they require English and economics in the first two years, then they should count those grades - any courses they felt were important enough to be taken do not lose importance after two years.

imho

Reply to
--

I went to engineering school during the 70's. It was highly competitive and many students struggled just to get a C since grading was strictly on a curve, even in small classes with 6-8 students.

As I remember, the worst part about it was taking classes with the pre-med students, who were required to take the same core classes (Chemistry, Physics, Calculus) but were so insanely competitive that they would rip-off the answers to the homework that was posted on the professor's office doors, lest someone else gain even a slight advantage.

Another memory from the labs was working with "A" students who couldn't set up an oscilloscope or an ammeter if their life depended on it. On the other hand, I have seen many C students who became dedicated and expert engineers. They just might not have been good test takers.

Beachcomber

Another memory from the labs was working with "A" students who couldn't set up an oscillscope or an Ammeter if their life depended on it. On the other hand, I have seen many C students who became dedicated and expert engineers. They just might not have been good test takers.

Beachcomber

Reply to
Beachcomber

Don't know what they do now, but in the 1970's, MIT trusted their admissions department to select students that were "MIT material". Once admitted, the Deans went out of their way to keep students, allowing time off and other things to help students work through non-academic problems.

Other engineering schools I've heard about did as you describe-- cutting some % of each class.

Reply to
Doug Milliken

That MIT recipe is familiar as the usual policy at Medical schools for training physicians too, I hear.

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK

Reply to
Brian Whatcott

The MIT model makes the best sense; select & support.

My oldest son went to Stanford & he joked that 50% of the kids there "got in by mistake". Few if any flunked out.; but only about 10% of the apps were accepted.

When you talking about the rarefied levels at MIT, CalTech, Harvey Mudd, Berkeley, U of I, etc ; weeding them out really doesn't make sense.

I work at a UC. Preformance & acheivement is related to undergrad effort not basic smarts. The kids in UC are the top 10% of California high school students, in engineering thye're proabably in the top 5%.

Do they really need to be weeded? Most profs I know grade on the "body of knowledge" concept. If everybody masters all the course concepts they all get A's, if thye all learn nothing, all F's

A's are reserved for those who master all topics, B's & C's for lower levels of understanding

C student; the right answer half the time or always a half right answer? :)

Considering the process to get into a top school, does it make sense to "weed the weeded" ? Seems like a major waste of time & effort.

cheers Bob

Reply to
BobK207

I don't know all the details of the program but it actually sounds a lot like what Wisconsin has been doing for roughly 20 years, with a possible exception of the entrance standards for getting into the general engineering department. I am using the Wisconsin terms for this since I don't know the proper terms for Minnesota. I suspect that there are ways to get into the general engineering school (does not grant an engineering degree) if you do not meet the initial requirements, such as entering the U and doing well outside of the engineering school.

Wisconsin is one of the schools that Minnesota wants to catch up to. They instituted the system because the demand go get into the engineering school than they could supply places. The idea is that you let more people in than you could supply places for in the final courses. Earlier performance (high school) is an indicator of ability to do university level work but it is not perfect (by a long shot). That way, you let more people in and then find out which ones can be competent engineers and spend more effort to make them better engineers. I know many people who are very intelligent and got much better overall grades than I did in high school and engineering school who are poor engineers.

At the time it was instituted, they told you what grades you needed to get into the various degree granting departments at the time you entered the general engineering school. Each school set their own entry level based on the number of students they could handle and how many students they thought wanted to get in. If I remember right, Electrical and Computer Engineering and Chemical Engineering had the highest initial required GPA for entrance.

Previous to that time, the higher rated and more popular departments had their individual unofficial methods of doing the same thing that were not told to students ahead of time. In Chem E, it was the combination of Chem Processes and Transport Phenomena. Chem Processes was a version of boot camp. It was tough but if you had reasonable skills and perserverance, you made it easily. Transport was another story. One person checked on the results one semester and found that over half of the people dropped the course, got a D, or got an F. The focus of the department at the time required that you knew transport inside and out to do well later.

P.S. I was one of the people who did not make it past transport and I realized later that I would not have been all that happy working in that field. I do have an engineering degree from Wisconsin and in spite of what my poor grades would indicate passed the PE exams with very high scores.

Reply to
billfuhrmannspamfilter

"--" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Hi -,

I have the similar perspective on marks as some of the other writers.

The reason they first pick their medical school entrants and nuture them through is that the best education is EXPENSIVE. I was a straight B- student through high school (not even worth an entrance consideration today). This was in Canada BTW. Through my BScEE degree I was a straight B student. Attrition rate by year 1 was about 50%. after year two about 25% more. Of more than 100 going into electrical engineering, 66 had left for other degrees. (there were 33 in my graduating class)

I prefer the broad approach, where you can have a low acceptance level, say C or C+. Most incapable or unmotivated high school students would never even apply.

Having a curve is a really dum idea. Its kind of like the way they grade Arts papers using the step method (throw the papers down a set of stairs and grade them according to where they land.

There needs to be some way to reduce the number of students of course since there is limited space available. tests may be useful, but should not be the sole deciding factor.

Even an average student can make a terrific engineer. Many people I graduated with are no longer engineers.

At my university, after 3rd year started you were nutured and helped by the professors in your studies. The same was true for 1st and 2nd year as best as could be done. Class sizes were an issue.

Ken

BTW What do you mean about "unscrewing" engineers?

Reply to
Ken

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