Metalwork in schools ?

Don't know about elsewhere but the district I work in has 8 high school and only 3 still have their Carpentry, Automotive, and Metals labs. Atlantic Canada

James

Dean wrote:

About 2 years ago I went to an auction at a local high school machine shop that was being closed, apparently due to a lack of interested students. I was told at the time that it was the last one in the Charlotte, Mecklenberg County school system which is in North Carolina. :-(

What's really sucks is that there seems to be quite a bit of renewed interest in metalworking thanks in part to Junkyard Wars, Monster Garage and American Chopper but I doubt the school systems will spend the money to start the classes again.

Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com

"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers (1879-1935).

Unfortunately, not very often anymore as they are expensive programs to maintain, the liability concerns, and in some areas -- a lack of interest. Many 2-yr colleges have programs. One of the 4-yr insitutions I attended, Cal Poly SLO, had a weld shop as part of one of their agricultural programs.

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In the six-county Chicago area, there are only two that I know of: Evanston High School and the Lake County Technology Campus (ie. a special school). I'm sure there are a few others, but not that many.

My high school had an extremely well equipped shop program (this was 15 years ago and I'm sure things have changed). But they set up the classes such that a student could not simply take one class (for example. welding, or how to run a mill/lathe, etc.) and be done with it. Taking that class required prerequistes, which in turn required other prerequistes, and so on. So basically if you weren't on the "not college bound stream" you couldn't take any shop classes.

Some years ago I took a welding course through a community college which used a local high school's facilities, there was a waiting list to get in. The first day of class, there were 8 or more 10' long lathes, 3 mills, a bandsaw and all the welding equipment. There was also a note indicating the college machinist class was cancelled (it was never offered again). As time went by, the non-welding equipment disappeared along with tooling from the 'closet'. Now the course is at a distant high school, and the local one no longer offers shop or welding to students. My kids will know how to do, though.

Joel. phx

It was the same way when I was in school about 25 years ago but instead of each school trying to keep its own shop we had one "industrial" school and the students went there.

Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com

"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers (1879-1935).

Pretty much dead in highschools in Northern California. Close to dead in community colleges with some notable exceptions. Vocational education is not a priority in California. IIRC the State Board of Education thinks that everyone ought to have the opportunity to go to college.

Closest community college program to me shut down about a year ago, apparently when the guy running it retired. Two nearest programs are about

60 miles away. The only way I can explain the situation is that kids are not interested in putting in two years to learn a trade. Either they are planning or going to four year college or flipping hamburgers for a living.

I talked with an automotive machine shop owner not too long ago. She said she had a hard time finding folks who had any training or experience. OTOH a lot of the good jobs have either been automated or shipped overseas.

Liability is not an issue at the community college level. They are either well insured or self-insured. Shouldn't be a problem for highschools, but maybe it is.

Welding is still alive where I am, at least at the community college level. Nearest community college runs day, evening and saturday classes. Most classes a full and have a long wait list. About half the folks attending are in the trade or trying to get into it. The other half is hobbyists. However, welding is barely hanging on at the three other nearby community colleges. Hard to understand because if they properly promoted the programs, funding would not be a problem. They get about $4000 per full time equivalent student to pay things like instructor salarys, etc. They can get Federal grants for the requipment and lottery money for consumables.

45 years ago, at my grammar school in London, we got a brand-new Myford lathe in what had been the woodwork room. We already had a woodworking lathe. As I wasn't any good at woodwork I volunteered to use it (only two of us in my class were interested) and got hooked. The teacher didn't know how to use it and we just learnt by trial and error.

The less academic technical schools actually taught metalwork and draughting as part of the curriculum, as their pupils were destined to become factory fodder. The dunces went to secondary modern schools.

I doubt if many UK schools teach metalwork any more, as it's too expensive. They do something called 'technology' which is usually robotics and stuff like that. Paradoxically, Eton College, one of the top public schools, has always had a fully equipped metalworking facility. In the good old days the pupils used to operate the machines wearing their tail coats.

Leon

High schools really don't want to prepare kids for anything other than

4 yr college prep. Its too expensive to maintain the equipment and facilities and besides, blue collar careers aren't sexy.. Welding or computer programming. Fixing cars or AP Calculus. More and more, I've seen funds just go towards more academic pursuits and let trade oriented based programs languish. I think high school students are a done terrible disservice by this.

I can tell you that American River College in Sacramento, CA has a great setup. Both auto shop and welding. (Wish they had more Miller Aerowaves, but ...) I think that at the time I took welding, courses were $11/unit. So $33 and no materials fee for about 80-100 hours or so of hands on welding. What a deal! I think I may have blown through nearly that in electrode and filler wire. In the TIG class I took, the amount of Tungsten I contaminated (and had to chop off and grind) probably did not even cover the course fee. Tuition has since gone up to $18/unit -- still a bargain.

CA community colleges are probably the only educational institutions where I've felt I've gotten more than my moneys worth. (Usually, many times over.)

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I live in Davis, just over the causeway from Sacramento. My daughter took a very decent metalcraft program in junior high. She didn't have a chance to take any metalworking in high school, but I did notice a very busy (and well maintained and supplied) auto shop the night I went over to see her drama performance.

We had a 2 metalshop and 2 woodshop classes in my high school in Erie, PA (as of 3 years ago). The metalshop instructor was a dick, though. We never welded, even though there was a shielded off area full of welding equipment. Either he didn't know how to arc weld, or didn't want to be responsible for accidents.

I guess I can't blame him, though. There were a hell of alot of fools in that class. I went to a big high school and never saw these people because I was taking classes for college bound students. I am surprised no one got injured in that class. Pieces would be flying out of the lathe chucks left and right.

One cool thing we did was aluminum casting. This is where the idiots truly shined. When the teacher wasn't looking, some kids would spit into the crucible full of molten aluminum so they could watch globs aluminum fly up at the ceiling. We did all this indoors and some of them would overfill the flask so they could watch the molten aluminum catch the linoleum on fire.

It truly is a shame that they are closing down all these programs. Metalshop was my favorite class in high school even though I was a nerd.

I see that you have few responses from the East Coast of the US, where I am, but our situation here is similar to what others are describing in California. Metalworking is disappearing from our general public schools. But like some others have described, we have a school model here that includes county-based technical and vocational high schools (as well as some that focus on such other specialties as performing arts), which are optional for all students and which have well-equipped, well-staffed machining and welding departments.

Most of those vocational high schools are more focused on construction trades and automotive service than they are on machining, however. We also have an extensive system of "community" colleges in the US, most of which focus on two-year programs of study. Basic machining, CAD/CAM, CNC, and other metalworking-related technologies that require more academic training are well represented at many of these small, mostly two-year colleges. In general, the more academic technical skills, such as CNC programming, that are demanded by manufacturing companies today are being taught later, in community colleges, rather than in high schools.

The career-based curricula favored by many public school boards in the US are those which our federal Dept. of Labor and state-level labor departments tell us are the ones most likely to equip kids for areas of job growth. Machining and toolmaking are curious anomalies in that regard: the US Dept. of Labor says that job prospects in both categories are "excellent" through

2010 and beyond, but they also project virtually flat employment in those categories through that period. That's because there will be a lot of retirees but no numerical growth in the number of jobs, according to their projections. The average US machinist is old; the average toolmaker is even older, approaching 58 as of two years ago. And those job-opportunity projections were made when we were importing $40 or 50 billion in manufactured goods from China. Today, the figure is over $120 billion.

As the training director for the National Tooling & Machining Assn. told me in an interview a couple of years ago, kids today don't want to think of themselves standing in front of a machine for year after year, no matter how high-tech it is, or how many lights and buttons it has. That's a cultural shift, which may tell us more than the actual job-projection figures.

$18/unit was last school year. IIRC it is going up to $24 this year. There was a lot of complaining earlier in the year when this was announced. But the fact is, the students who might not be able to afford the increase already had Board of Governors fee waivers and were paying nothing.

If you took a TIG class at ARC you definitely got more in the way of tungsten, cups, filler, argon and electricity than you paid in fees, even at the new rates. California community colleges are definitely a wonderful thing. You can take a 12 unit sequence in SMAW (stick welding) for $288 plus books. The equivalent might cost as much as $5000 at a private school. And then you wouldn't get the same theoretical background.

FWIW at one time there was a materials fee of about $300 per course. But it didn't last long. The money was collected and duly remitted to the district. When the welding department asked for some of it to buy supplies, the district told them they weren't getting any of it. End of materials fee.

I've just been to a school reunion in NZ and met my metalwork, woodwork and art teachers. They taught me 48 years ago, so they are rather old now. The metalwork teacher did remember me since I was one of his top pupils, and he was one of the three most important influences in my life. It was great to meet him again.

He was a little upset that his metalwork room has now become a dance studio. The woodwork room has become "hard materials", which seems to include woodwork, a bit of metalwork, and making arty things :(

Joel,

Was this Carl Hayden High School in Phoenix? I took a machine shop class there with Rio Salado college before I took a course at MCC. I know the MCC course is gone as the instructor retired. What a shame as they had good equipment and it was in good shape as well. Even had a EDM for demonstrations!

Thanks

Bart D. Hull snipped-for-privacy@inficad.com Tempe, Arizona

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Joel Corwith wrote:

Guess I was lucky.

I graduated High School in 1986 and got to take courses in carpentry, metal working (sheet metal, lathes, mills and casting metal.) Even got to handle the pour for casting with another student. Losers in the class were not given the priviledge to pour. Also took an auto upholstery course at the Vocational-Technical school for 1/2 a day every day for 6 months of my senior year. Then I went to Arizona State University and got a degree. (For some reason EVERYBODY that wants to hire you needs to see that paper.)

Guess that's why I can get my projects done at work or in my home. If I can't do it myself at least I know what someone else needs to be able to do to accomplish it.

Bart D. Hull snipped-for-privacy@inficad.com Tempe, Arizona

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Keith Marshall wrote:

"Leon Heller"

Assuming that Myfords are still a good quality machine, its seems amazing by todays standards that an ordinary school would purchase a Myford lathe. I remember the school I went to had some Myfords and I think the expensive private schools even had Cholchesters ! The machine dealers I speak to often mention that their cheap Chinese machines go to the schools now days.

Paradoxically, Eton College, one of the top public schools, has

Ah yes, the gentlemanly craft of turning ! It builds character dont you know.

Dean.

"Jonathan Ward"

They needed a metal instructor like the guy we had. He could scream so loud that you'd nearly faint and it was done with his nose almost touching yours. I think he used to be an army drill sergent or something and knew how to straighten out troublesome kids. It'd be against some law now.

Some of the smartest kids at my school took metalwork and they are now all successful. It probably provides some balance from pure theory.

Dean.