Athearn - MDC Roundhouse Now Dead?

than taking all their products away from Walthers< Horizons bottom line is to eliminate Walthers. They will then own the model RR market or so they think. Remember all the small companies that went direct when Walthers started charging for space in the catalog. Now move that concept to Horizon including larger and larger companies.

"Destroyed?" Not even close. Not available to every hobby shop? Very true. But that hardy constitutes that they're being destroyed.

They aren't.

No. When Irv Athearn died, his family sold it to basically some venure capitalists. They, in turn, made every effort to increase the company's worth (see Genesis line, RTR line, etc.), and then found a buyer to recoup their investment and realize the profits. The buyer they found was Horizon. MDC's owner had run them since the 1930's, and he decided it was time to retire. As such, he wanted to find a buyer to recoup his lifetime investment. Horizon was looking, so the deal was struck.

Again, they aren't.

They aren't putting them out of business. They are, however, trying to protect legitimate retailers from the bargain basement dealers and the train shows. I don't like it one bit, but that's what they are doing.

Of course not. Athearn has pretty much taken over the MDC line, so I would address my comments over at Athearn's website.

Yes and no. If Horizon can get away with it, it will, in the end (I hope) improve the lot of us modelers by having two large competing distributers going after our business.

I haven't met too many "knowlegeable store employees". For the most part, they are retailers first, hobbiests second (if at all). They are usually wrong in their info if they aren't flat out lying to you, and they routinely try to turn you to poor, slow selling objects to get them out the door. There are exceptions of course, but in my experience, it's been about

50%-50% either way.

No, a total disaster is the Asian tsunami, the Calif. mudslides, or the Flordia hurricanes. This situation is mildly annoying, but not a total disaster.

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:09:20 -0800, "Jon Miller" wrote: <

Then they will "own" and will have totally destroyed the market that they "own" They will own a totally destroyed and worthless market. What's with these folks?! Reminds me of the Eastern Airlines labor union strike. The unions stuck to their positions, and "won" and drove their company out of business, and with it, all their jobs. But at least they "won"

BTW, how long will Athearn and MDC Roundhouse exist, now that Horizon has shut down all their product sales. Not long, I suspect.

And I am thankful for all those small companies that provide products that I need, although they are hard to find "out there" if you don't know where to search. Serendipity, Last evening, I was looking through my Walthers catalog for "HO vehicles" And looked at a couple of dozen or more manufacturer's products. And then went to the Walthers' web site and placed a large order. It would have been much more difficult to try to search over the whole Internet through all those many different companies, and pick the items I want, and then place all those individual orders. Probably wouldn't have been worth all the trouble. I suspect that having ones' products listed in the Walthers catalog, in paper or on the web with all its' search capabilities, would result in a lot more sales. A great value received for a small investment.

Based on what Horizon has done so far, they will have destroyed every company that they have taken over. And perhaps, someday they will have "won" having totally self destructed like the Eastern Airlines unions.

Meanwhile, I am just concerned to keep on doing my hobby, doing business with all the companies that provide the fine products I need.

Here's my 2cents Thanks Jon

Best Regards

Robert

Hmmm. Don't know about you, but I'd rather give my money to the local hobby dealer, who is also a railroad modeler, than give to subhumans like walmarts management. (Course, we don't have to worry about walmart unless what they sell is chinese, they don't have anything else.)

So, steer me to a souce of the MDC Climax or their Boxcab. Or even their truss rod cars. I'd have to say destroyed.

Again, when the part of their inventory that moved the slowest has been declared unprofitable and dropped, and that part of their inventory is the only thing I care about, as far as I'm concerned, they're destroyed.

"Joe's Hobbies" is a legitimate outlet, Toys'R us isn't.

What I have gathered from searching their pages, Horizon is only interested in the big name stores, thinks that most of their market is from the kids. The concept of dedicated hobbyists is one they don't understand. Carrying a full line of accessories, especially the craftsman type stuff is totally beyond their ability to comprehend. They give the serious hobbyist lip service, and little else.

I don't like to see any so called business venture glom onto so much control of what is made, and who the distributors will be. This can only, and has historically led to the loss of many of the smaller, high quality lines in favor of cheap garbage that nobody wants.

Florida hurricanes and Calif mudslides aren't disasters, only examples of stupidity for rebuilding in the same place after the last one.

I've also had more hobby shop dealers steer me to something that was better, and usually more expensive, than I have had try to sell me some junk. Almost as much as the wish they didn't have that crap inventory, they don't want a reputation for selling crap and telling customers that it's great. One that I use, if I go looking for something that I haven't seen in a while, he'll go dig through his back room, and more often than not come out with it. Best part is that he'll blow off the dust and give me the price that he wrote on the box, sometimes more than twenty years earlier. Horizon isn't going to be capable of digging through old stock, and you aren't going to get the twenty year old price from them.

May the demise of horizon be swift and final. Then people that care about what they make and sell will have a chance to pick up the ruins to start over.

Touche' I left Florida for that reason.

I would much rather spend a bit more for something good than have to "settle" for a piece of CRAP.

It seems that pride of workmanship has gone the way of the Dodo bird. I hope it comes back, there seems to be a few companies that still care.

Intelligent decision.

Ditto. I might buy a plastic kit, but only to copy it in wood. If I buy a wood kit, I expect to pay for accuracy, and usually get it. If I buy something expecting quality and get mass produced, "bean counter approved" crap, that brand goes on the "forget it" list. This is a hobby, most people will pay a little (or a lot) more to get the good stuff. (A principle that no board of directors is capable of understanding.)

It will, but if the bigger companies, the ones that want to be the "one and only", have their way, as soon as the better products hit the market, they will have their legal staff looking for some way to kill it as fast as possible. If the sharks can't find a way, the next step is to try to buy the better product, but as it will always be limited production, once they have control, it will disappear. From horizon's policies, I can't believe they have any intention of supporting the serious modeler, they're more interested in toy store crap that they can make super cheap, that only lasts a minimum amount of time, but they can sell by the carload.

Greybeard

And what does that have to do with anything? Don't know about you, but in every Walmart I've ever been in, RR hobby supplies are few and far between (like, none). Unless you count Testors paint (I don't). Horizon is only selling Athearn and MDC stuff to what they consider legit hobby shops, and their standards are pretty high (too high, IMHO). They can also be a pain to deal with, so I hear.

Oh, and Athearn just announced that they will be doing the MDC truss rod shorty passenger cars and the MDC 30' flat car in RTR form...

And I'd have to say that you are wrong.

Who has declared them unprofitable? Are these in fact OOP?

I see... Personally, when I consider a company "destroyed" is when they go out of business, and their kits are forever lost. That is just not the case here. Horizon is going to be making MDC kits and RTR available, but first they have to get in the pipeline (the shorty passenger cars and the

30' flat are first).

Where does that come from? When I was in a Toys R Us shopping for my nephews last month, all I saw was Life-Like junk for HO on sale. Where are you getting the idea that they will be carrying MDC or Athearn products?

Can you site an example of this?

Same here. Where do you get this idea from?

Give them some credit. They just got into the RR hobby business. The rumor is that they want to compete with Walthers. Well, if Walthers offers all the detail parts, etc., then Horizon will, eventually.

Yes and no. Walthers has always done this. Were you complaining then? What I don't like is Horizon's stupid retail policy. If they adopted the more liberal policy that Walthers uses, then all would be OK with me.

So, we should abandon the state of Florida and the CA coast, is that what you are saying? You know, there are a lot of tornados in the midwest...should we abandon Kansas, Nebraska, etc.?

Not in my experience. When I was trying to purchase some Atlas Code 83 flex, this one hobby shop owner that I've known for years tried to get me to buy Atlas Code 100 flex because of the price and the "flange" problems with Code 83. I looked at him like he grew a horn out of his forehead, and told him that I don't have anything with those "pie cutter" flanges, and he ought to know that by now.

I've heard and experienced hobby retailers selling crap and calling it gold. In these specific instances, they didn't care about their reputation, they wanted the greenbacks (it's funny, however, most of these hobby shops are no longer in business). The two shops I go to that don't do that are either 30 miles or 100 miles away.

Not in some of the stores I've been in. I know for a fact that this other LHS owner routinely ups his prices on Athearn stock to match the latest figures, no matter how many decades they've been in his store.

Now how the heck could they do that? Have they even been in business for 20 years? Geez, they only bought Athearn, what, a year ago? They are a distributer and a manufacturer, for pete's sake, not a hobby shop. Give me a break...

Good, when are you going to buy in on the remnents, and start production?

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

basement dealers and the train shows.< This is absolute BS and by now most know it. Even one of my LHS (who is a Horizon dealer) say it. They have simply arranged their business to those who will provide x amount of dollars purchased from them. Any of the above mentioned, Horizon will deal with if enough money is supplied!

"one and only", have their way, as soon as the better products hit the market, they will have their legal staff looking for some way to kill it as fast as possible< A perfect example of this is MTHX!

first they have to get in the pipeline (the shorty passenger cars and the

30' flat are first).< I may be wrong on this but I thought Horizon has flat stated there will be _no_ more MDC "kits"!

walmart is my example of a useless and senseless company without any justification for their existance. Ok?

Site says, "in stock", order placed, we shall see whether I get goods or backorder notification. My bet is on "site needs updating, backorder."

What does the word "when" mean?

We shall see. By blocking out my LHS, they are only telling me to buy from someone else.

For the rest of your comments, read the website, with a historical view of what has happened in many other hobby fields. THink horizon is "above that"? Dollars to donuts says they won't be. Bigger, when it comes to hobby companies, never means better. Walthers at least sells almost everything, but while I'm impressed with their quality of the cornerstone series, I'm not impressed that it's all modern era. A little diversity would be welcome, but probably won't happen.

Companies that have in mind improving things do not go buying out the smaller companies that make the products, that is only a grab for both ends, "we'll charge whatever we want, and you don't have any choice now." A small company distributing what they make isn't a problem, the problem is a bigger one wanting to be the only one. horizon can say anything they want, but I have never, and will never, see anything to the good of any hobby come from a bigger company gobbling smaller ones. They will not be the exception. If they accomplish anything, it's going to be seeing the smaller, local shops starved out of business so the few "approved" (by them) shops can get all of the business. I happen to think that maybe paying my LHS a few dollars more than I can get things over the web, and going home with supplies in hand beats placing an order and waiting for a week, month, year, or more. (It took almost two years after I ordered the MDC Climax before I had it in hand. It's not a first line item, and not produced until orders can justify a run of them.)

>

All I can go by is the last I've heard from someone who actually knows. The last message I got was back in July, 2004 from Carl Crosier, Director Model Railroad Division of Horison. I quote from his e-mail, in reference to Athearn and Roundhouse: "I can tell you that kits will remain available under both brands and RTR products will also continue to be available."

Now, did he mean just for the time being, or for eternity...that I do not know. But until I see otherwise from a legit source, I have to go by what he says and assume that kits and RTR will continue to be available.

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

Well, I don't like what they are doing at all WRT their strict retailer policy, as I think they are making a big mistake. But it's their company, they can sell to whoever they want to. Still, what other reason could they possibly have for such an inane policy? They are only cutting off their own cash supply. If they aren't protecting legit hobby shops, then what the heck are they doing?

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

Well, that's fine and all, but it didn't really have anything to do with the topic at hand...

There might be more dealers out there. That link came up in a 5 second Yahoo search when I typed in "Model Die Casting Roundhouse Climax". It was one of the first ones on the list...

Huh? You said "Again, when the part of their inventory that moved the slowest has been declared unprofitable and dropped, and that part of their inventory is the only thing I care about, as far as I'm concerned, they're destroyed." The way I read this, you are stating that they are OOP as fact. Is that what you meant?

Now there, I agree. Their LHS policy is quite dumb, IMHO.

Could you help me out here and tell me what other hobby fields have been so affected? I'm getting lost on this one.

Before I get into this one, could you tell me what you mean by "modern"? To me, modern is something that was built in the past 10 years or so, like a steel warehouse or a container facility. A lot of what Walthers is making in their Cornerstone series is not something that was built so recently, like Steel Mills, Gas Plants, car floats, RR tugs, roundhouses, etc. (a lot of it is great for the 1940's-1950's-1960's).

Again, I say Walthers with Magnusson, et al. Or how about pre-Horizon Athearn? Didn't they gobble up Globe and get the original F-unit? Didn't they gobble up Rail Power Products? Aren't they the only source for painted Highliner shells? (all pre-Horizon)

No argument there. I have no idea why they are doing this, really, other than some misguided notion of protecting legit shops.

Understandable. I usually feel the same. However, all my track for my layout was ordered over the phone. When a mail-order shop is selling Atlas track for almost 50% off MSRP ($20 for 30' of Code 83)...I can't see the sense in buying at full list at my LHS, not when I need 600' of track.

Note that this is pre-Horizon MDC...

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

Remember Mantua products? They got bought out and then eventually that company's products are no more. Things have a way of sorting themselves out. Horizon is trying the same tricks that got Mantua deceased. Whether they end up realizing their folly or not, there will be somebody to take over if Athearn and MDC go away.

-- Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

In article snipped-for-privacy@news-1.nethere.net, Bob May at snipped-for-privacy@nethere.com wrote on 1/22/05 23:44:

I doubt Athearn and MDC will "go away" should Horizon founder.

Athearn is quite a venerable company in the hobby field, as is MDC. Each goes back quite a ways - MDC to the 1930s, I believe. Likely, those companies (or just Athearn, if MDC has been folded thereinto) would be spun off to raise cash.

Personally, while Athearn's products, particularly their blue box kit line, may not measure up to today's expectations in terms of detailing, their low price makes it economical for one to rapidly build up a fleet. One hundred dollars budgeted for "fleet expansion" will buy maybe five or six $20 cars like the Kadees and Genesis, and even the RTR stuff, but that same C-note wil buy, at minimum, twice as many cars. Granted, that money won't cover things like couplers and metal wheelsets, but it gets you going in the right direction.

Dieter Zakas

Two points.

1. In the computer business there is a company called Symantec. Their philosophy seems to be "We have enough money to buy any viable competitor' Mostly they buy a company, ruin the product and put it in a yellow box. Anyone who used PC Tools from Central Point Software over several other products can relate to this. This seems to be the Horizon business model.

1. MDC let quality slide several years ago, their recent GN & NP stuff was exceptionally egregious (except for the GN express reefers which unfortunately were on an inappropriate car). Colours nowhere close to those used by these roads, NP cars in 'Glacier Green' for example, and wildly wrong typefaces for lettering, like the 12 car set of GN cars where the typefaces on the hopper cars must have come from Mars. Hell all they had to do is ask the historical societies, that's what Atlas & Accurail do.

I am making a prediction, with a 98% chance of being correct, it's based on history.

Perhaps modern might have been a bad choice of words, maybe urban would be better. Out of all that they offer in their Cornerstone series, there is nothing that I will be interested in, but the quality of the kits is impressive enough to make me wish that they offered things from a more rural setting. (Rural does not have to mean farm or anything like that, but something from a small "out in the sticks" look. I live in a city, and I can go to other cities, but as I don't like cities, why would I model them?) The 1940's is a little later than I'd like.

Nor do I buy everything from my LHS. However, I spend much more at the LHS than I do over the web or mail order. In the three hobby shops I visit frequently and the one I visit infrequently, I have yet to pay full list for anything.

Note also, that it denotes an item of small demand, but was still available, which I doubt will be the situation once the current run is gone.

I'm confused. What exactly is the LHS policy that has got everyone so riled?

CL