connecting batteries in parallel or series, myth and theory

Again you are lying. Yes I changed the parameters of my programmable regulator. It's still a three stage regulator. It just does it to different voltages.

And again, you never designed your system and again you never built your house and yet again you said that increasing the daily load was the way to to reduce line losses.

Ah, no. parallel strings in a home power system is wasting money. I know this from training that told me that the same thing as the paper at:

"This is not a problem for occasional discharges, or for more frequent discharges that are taken to completion. It can become an issue, however for a system that is designed for long discharges, but is subjected to frequent shallow discharges. In this case, the high rate battery will receive the brunt of the cycling duty, and may age prematurely as a result."

well"

setting..."

Well after twenty five years of using solar power, living on solar power and twenty years of designing and installing solar power for others. Yes I do know what I am doing. While you still have no idea what your system produces or uses.

Ah yes. Another lie. Nearly all deep cycle batteries will withstand a discharge of up to 80% (Maximum Depth of Discharge) wayne confuses this with the Daily Depth of Discharge. Still you can believe wayne if it make you feel better about not understanding system design.

Well the first was a result of bad judgment in that I followed the advice of a wayne clone and used parallel strings. The next three sets of batteries were second hand and kept things going untell I had the cash to install a single string of the correct Ah capacity. Of this crime I am guilty, please forgive me.

Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did.

Why would a struckcheral editar choose the word "subvert" instead of "change" when he last described his modifications?

So the float voltage is 15, and the other stages, which are normally substantially higher, are what exactly?

Wayne

Poetic license.

Your loads, time run, watt hours are what exactly?

You see, after ten+ years you are behind the game.

| Lead by its nature is contaminated, with lead. And yes I have recycled | tonnes of batteries as I have replaced tonnes of batteries for many | people.

So pure lead is contaminated with lead. Now that's a weird way to think about things. But I'm not surprised it's coming from you.

| So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did.

All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel strings?

| Equalization should be done based on the hydrometer readings | of your cells being out of whack. As a scheduled activity most | advice I've seen suggests once every six months. These types of | routine equalization only last 1-3hrs. Any time you are so severely | overvolting the batteries you NEED to be closely monitoring the | batteries, especially the temperatures, and MUST suspend charging | until they return to normal temperatures, before continuing the | equalization. (The equalization process stresses and shortens the | lifespan of a battery, just not nearly as much as allowing the sulfide | buildup.)

I'd be interested in what effect would come of more frequent, but short term, charging pulses at an equalization level, done only when the batteries are topped off at 100%. Instead of 1-3 hours, maybe a couple minutes, then wait an hour, then two more minutes, and repeat this maybe a couple times each day when there has been some recent period of less than 100% charge.

I'm considering what I might do to automate the whole system. Part of that is what I might be able to do to have the computer measure the batteries for the specific gravity and temperature, as well as the usual voltage between charge pulses, and the current during a charge pulse.

| You should never have a battery so badly sulfated that you need | to try any equalization over a couple hours. But if someone gave | you some (from their neglected system), you could try a long term | equalization, monitoring closely and suspending charging as | required ( I would rig a thermal shutdown and restart, and do the | job outside the house or garage, in a shed.) These "recovered" | batteries would have a shortened lifespan as a result of the | process, but if you got them for free or cheap enough, it might be | worth the trouble.

Or maybe short pulses followed by a cooling rest, repeated some number of times.

| If the situation becomes chronic then you need to | redesign your setup. ( This might involve adding | storage capacity and could well involve adding a | matching parallel string to your existing setup, it | would not mean any disaster is more likely. )

What about, with 2 battery strings/banks, flipping the charge between them so neither spends too much time below 100%? Of course one problem with this is that it means a lot of cycles on both. That and since the process would not be 100% efficient, you'd be driving the discharge level further down, or need to supplement with some external power. What I am thinking, though, is if your external power level would take a long time to bring a bank up to 100%, maybe it would be of benefit for a bank that has been low for a while to drive it back to 100% using the other bank for now (hoping that maybe full external power will be back up higher once the 2nd bank needs to get recharged).

If linear accumulation of time discharged is the issue, as opposed to how long each discharge period is, then this would not work.

If you had it setup to provide some redundancy, that might make some sense, I don't know. Why don't you just get a good stable setup working, before trying to design something new?

For an initial design you would be sizing for a single string with the highest capacity cells you can afford. The addition of a parallel string for greater capacity, is just an affordable way to increase your capacity, when it turns out that your initial capacity wasn't enough. If you were rolling in dough, you could totally replace your existing battery bank and inverter, with a new larger capacity single string. There is no need to avoid the parallel string in that situation, as long as good normal maintenance practices are followed.

Luck; Ken

The design of sophisticated micro-processor controlled charge controllers/chargers is a little beyond my pay grade. Before attempting to create your own you might thoroughly research what is available, there may be one that is already operating in a similar manner. (If not you can risk your own battery bank for a year or two testing that idea out, then post here with your results. )

Luck; Ken

Are you really that thick? Lead is a serious contaminant in the environment. Surprised you don't know that.

Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home power systems.

Clutching at straws comes to mind.

| That's my point & that Flame Returdant excremental writ nitwit went & | fouled up the niceness :-( Can't just Off his stupid switch ? }:-)

Don't worry, he'll be the first to blow a fuse, someday.

In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 19, 5:25 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: |>

|> | Lead by its nature is contaminated, with lead. And yes I have recycled |> | tonnes of batteries as I have replaced tonnes of batteries for many |> | people. |>

|> So pure lead is contaminated with lead. Now that's a weird way to think |> about things. But I'm not surprised it's coming from you. | | Are you really that thick? Lead is a serious contaminant in the | environment. Surprised you don't know that.

But in the contex of a lead plate, it is not a contaminate. Lead is what is supposed to be there.

|> | So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a |> | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three |> | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do |> | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me |> | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the |> | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did. |>

|> All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. |> But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't |> try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel |> strings? | | Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also | tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to | solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home | power systems.

All it proves is you did parallel strings the wrong way N-1 times.

More like a Freudian slip.

A more appropriate question would be "what are your controller settings?". 28.8 bulk and absorption, 1 hour absorption (usually lasts longer due to interruptions by loads), and 27.2 float. See how easy that is? Apparently it's harder for quacks who are embarrassed by what their tinkering reveals.

I already get the bulk of my home energy needs from sun and wind, and have been doing so since day one. After a couple decades, you're still getting about 20X less. How much longer before you catch up? In particular, when do you plan to modify your infamous deezine so that loads over a few hundred watts, such as "cloths washing", don't require hiking out to the "workshop" to start a generator? And when can we expect to hear that you've stopped burning propane for refrigeration and water heating? Or is that stuff strictly for those who are "behind the game"?

Wayne

| The design of sophisticated micro-processor controlled | charge controllers/chargers is a little beyond my pay | grade. Before attempting to create your own you might | thoroughly research what is available, there may be one that | is already operating in a similar manner. (If not you can | risk your own battery bank for a year or two testing that | idea out, then post here with your results. )

Unfortunately, when it comes to the firmware controls, it's hard to get real information to make judgements. Most people don't know programming and so much accept whatever the manufacturer decides to put in there. That means for people like me, the information I want (the source code of the firmware) isn't going to be available.

Good. Please describe all of this "geewizzery". Should be a comedy goldmine.

Wayne

| If you had it setup to provide some redundancy, that might | make some sense, I don't know. Why don't you just get a | good stable setup working, before trying to design something | new?

You mean, just do what someone else does, the way they do it, first, and see if that succeeds or fails?

| For an initial design you would be sizing for a single | string with the highest capacity cells you can afford. The | addition of a parallel string for greater capacity, is just an | affordable way to increase your capacity, when it turns out | that your initial capacity wasn't enough. If you were rolling | in dough, you could totally replace your existing battery bank | and inverter, with a new larger capacity single string. There | is no need to avoid the parallel string in that situation, as long | as good normal maintenance practices are followed.

The finances of the future are not predictable. I need to be flexible.

He's very clear about that, in one of previous battery wisdumb demonstrations, he asserted that "When charging, the gas given off is Hydogen Sulphide"

Sounds like a straight line. :-)

I can't resist 2 straight lines in a row.... the lead may have gone to his head. :-)

Wayne

Ah but the context as stated by you was recycling when you said;

"He should recycle his leftover lead, if it's not too terribly contaminated. Sounds like he probably has a lot of it. "

In the context of recycling "LEAD" is the contaminate.

No, it means that you will learn an expensive lesson. You have been fishing for someone to tell you what you want to hear and found wayne.