connecting batteries in parallel or series, myth and theory

On Aug 20, 1:00 am, snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote:


And still no answer as to your systems loads and what they use. No Numbers, no hope, no credibility.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 18 Aug 2008 01:15:59 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Phil,
I don't have science based information here.
It seems that, in addition to periodic 100% charges, periodic equalizations (controlled overcharges) are also required.
Surrette recommends equalization if battery specific gravities should vary by more than 0.015 between any two cells in the bank. And they also present, on their web site, recommendations for voltage, how often, how much, etc.
Also, for batteries that have become severely sulfated, I have been told by one of their tech support people that a prolonged equalization (as in days to weeks), along with careful monitoring of temperature and fluid levels, can often recover a severely sulfated battery. He stated he had done this personally.
--ron
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| Also, for batteries that have become severely sulfated, I have been told by | one of their tech support people that a prolonged equalization (as in days | to weeks), along with careful monitoring of temperature and fluid levels, | can often recover a severely sulfated battery. He stated he had done this | personally.
So one would at least need some kind of redundancy system, to do this, if they are off-grid.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 18 Aug 2008 19:51:39 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

So far as periodic equalization, you just need some period of time with excess energy.
I occasionally have these periods during the summer, and they are not unusual during the rest of the year. They are more common in the late fall--early spring when we have the occasional "three day blow".
I would not do a prolonged equalization unless it was during one of these times. And I don't know that it has to be done "all at once". Perhaps 24-72 hrs/week, for a few weeks, might do the job. You just have to monitor the batteries.
You probably won't be able to equalize continuously for days, anyway, because the cells may get too hot.
I have a hybrid Wind-PV system with a propane generator for backup. --ron
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload


Equalization should be done based on the hydrometer readings of your cells being out of whack. As a scheduled activity most advice I've seen suggests once every six months. These types of routine equalization only last 1-3hrs. Any time you are so severely overvolting the batteries you NEED to be closely monitoring the batteries, especially the temperatures, and MUST suspend charging until they return to normal temperatures, before continuing the equalization. (The equalization process stresses and shortens the lifespan of a battery, just not nearly as much as allowing the sulfide buildup.)
You should never have a battery so badly sulfated that you need to try any equalization over a couple hours. But if someone gave you some (from their neglected system), you could try a long term equalization, monitoring closely and suspending charging as required ( I would rig a thermal shutdown and restart, and do the job outside the house or garage, in a shed.) These "recovered" batteries would have a shortened lifespan as a result of the process, but if you got them for free or cheap enough, it might be worth the trouble.
Luck; Ken
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| Equalization should be done based on the hydrometer readings | of your cells being out of whack. As a scheduled activity most | advice I've seen suggests once every six months. These types of | routine equalization only last 1-3hrs. Any time you are so severely | overvolting the batteries you NEED to be closely monitoring the | batteries, especially the temperatures, and MUST suspend charging | until they return to normal temperatures, before continuing the | equalization. (The equalization process stresses and shortens the | lifespan of a battery, just not nearly as much as allowing the sulfide | buildup.)
I'd be interested in what effect would come of more frequent, but short term, charging pulses at an equalization level, done only when the batteries are topped off at 100%. Instead of 1-3 hours, maybe a couple minutes, then wait an hour, then two more minutes, and repeat this maybe a couple times each day when there has been some recent period of less than 100% charge.
I'm considering what I might do to automate the whole system. Part of that is what I might be able to do to have the computer measure the batteries for the specific gravity and temperature, as well as the usual voltage between charge pulses, and the current during a charge pulse.
| You should never have a battery so badly sulfated that you need | to try any equalization over a couple hours. But if someone gave | you some (from their neglected system), you could try a long term | equalization, monitoring closely and suspending charging as | required ( I would rig a thermal shutdown and restart, and do the | job outside the house or garage, in a shed.) These "recovered" | batteries would have a shortened lifespan as a result of the | process, but if you got them for free or cheap enough, it might be | worth the trouble.
Or maybe short pulses followed by a cooling rest, repeated some number of times.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

The design of sophisticated micro-processor controlled charge controllers/chargers is a little beyond my pay grade. Before attempting to create your own you might thoroughly research what is available, there may be one that is already operating in a similar manner. (If not you can risk your own battery bank for a year or two testing that idea out, then post here with your results. )
Luck; Ken
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| The design of sophisticated micro-processor controlled | charge controllers/chargers is a little beyond my pay | grade. Before attempting to create your own you might | thoroughly research what is available, there may be one that | is already operating in a similar manner. (If not you can | risk your own battery bank for a year or two testing that | idea out, then post here with your results. )
Unfortunately, when it comes to the firmware controls, it's hard to get real information to make judgements. Most people don't know programming and so much accept whatever the manufacturer decides to put in there. That means for people like me, the information I want (the source code of the firmware) isn't going to be available.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
says...

Do you demand circuit diagrams for every IC you use too? GL1? Doping profiles? In this case there is very little difference between "hardware" and "firmware".
--
Keith

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| says...
|> |> | The design of sophisticated micro-processor controlled |> | charge controllers/chargers is a little beyond my pay |> | grade. Before attempting to create your own you might |> | thoroughly research what is available, there may be one that |> | is already operating in a similar manner. (If not you can |> | risk your own battery bank for a year or two testing that |> | idea out, then post here with your results. ) |> |> Unfortunately, when it comes to the firmware controls, it's hard to get real |> information to make judgements. Most people don't know programming and so |> much accept whatever the manufacturer decides to put in there. That means |> for people like me, the information I want (the source code of the firmware) |> isn't going to be available. |> | Do you demand circuit diagrams for every IC you use too? GL1? | Doping profiles? In this case there is very little difference | between "hardware" and "firmware".
I certainly at least need the pinouts and what the IC does. Circuit diagrams are a common way to explain this succinctly.
Firmware, in particular, is highly subject to "bugs" and frequently needs to be upgraded. The reason I want access at this level is because I believe I may be able to make things smarter and function better in a much wider range of conditions, including an understanding of conditions not directly measurable that would only be know by the record of past measurements. Very little firmware programming in any industry gets this sophisticated.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net says...

Do you demand circuit diagrams for your televisions too? Radios? What do you do if there is an ASIC in there? This is a silly demand.

Hardware and firmware are no different, other than firmware can (not necessarily may) be updated. Other than that, there is no difference. he device manufacturer may have damned good reasons to NOT let you play and is certainly under no obligation to do so (I wouldn't).
--
Keith

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net says...
|> | says...
|> |> |> |> | The design of sophisticated micro-processor controlled |> |> | charge controllers/chargers is a little beyond my pay |> |> | grade. Before attempting to create your own you might |> |> | thoroughly research what is available, there may be one that |> |> | is already operating in a similar manner. (If not you can |> |> | risk your own battery bank for a year or two testing that |> |> | idea out, then post here with your results. ) |> |> |> |> Unfortunately, when it comes to the firmware controls, it's hard to get real |> |> information to make judgements. Most people don't know programming and so |> |> much accept whatever the manufacturer decides to put in there. That means |> |> for people like me, the information I want (the source code of the firmware) |> |> isn't going to be available. |> |> |> | Do you demand circuit diagrams for every IC you use too? GL1? |> | Doping profiles? In this case there is very little difference |> | between "hardware" and "firmware". |> |> I certainly at least need the pinouts and what the IC does. Circuit diagrams |> are a common way to explain this succinctly. | | Do you demand circuit diagrams for your televisions too? Radios? | What do you do if there is an ASIC in there? This is a silly demand.
Your reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking. You skills in coming up with analogies are also rather poor. If you read more carefully and do some thinking as you read, you can see I say that it is the pinouts that are what is needed. The circuit diagram happens to be a common way to explain the pinouts of ICs, and that's what people often work with. If you had ever built an IC based project, you'd know this, and would have been able to compensate for your poor reading skills.
The TV equivalent to "pinouts of an IC" are the video/audio input/output jacks. And it is the pinouts that I need.
If you knew anything about electrical engineering, you'd understand this.
If you could read better, you'd have know I never asked for circuit diagrams and only referenced them as a way that is done ... for ICs ... I never said this for TVs.
|> Firmware, in particular, is highly subject to "bugs" and frequently needs to |> be upgraded. The reason I want access at this level is because I believe I |> may be able to make things smarter and function better in a much wider range |> of conditions, including an understanding of conditions not directly measurable |> that would only be know by the record of past measurements. Very little |> firmware programming in any industry gets this sophisticated. | | Hardware and firmware are no different, other than firmware can (not | necessarily may) be updated. Other than that, there is no | difference. he device manufacturer may have damned good reasons to | NOT let you play and is certainly under no obligation to do so (I | wouldn't).
You wouldn't (let people modify firmware) just because you have a major attitude problem. Ironically, firmware you might develop is what would most likely need to be modified ... a lot ... or replaced entirely.
Companies that put a lot of effort into making firmware that works really well don't want to let their competition see how they do that. If they really do make good firmware, then there's no issue. Unfortunately, a lot of companies are as full of themselves as you are and _think_ their firmware is really hot stuff when in reality it is just crap. People who know how to develop firmware know they can do better. They just need the hardware interface details to do it. And they need the firmware code itself if they intent to replace only the parts that are broken and keep the parts that work OK (for firmware that isn't really total crap, but can use a little improvement).
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
says...

NO, your cognitive skills are nonexistent. Pinouts do no good if you have no idea what's inside the black box and cannot buy a new one (i.e. an ASIC). Much of the world is like that, you know.

...and in most cases it would do you no good if you had it. You have no idea what's in the black box and can't buy another black box, if you did.

You are clueless. We left the 74xx world decades ago.

You have no idea what's inside the box and couldn't do anything with it if you had it.

My pinky knows more about this subject than you ever will, dumbshit. I design the stuff for a living (and have for the past 35 years).

I used TVs as a *simple* example, dumbshit. Circuit diagrams will do no good if you have no clue what the black box is. If *you* knew anything about the subject you wouldn't be making such a fool of yourself. Yes, a schematic will help *me* as the designer. It wouldn't to shit for me as a user. "No user serviceable parts inside."

No, I wouldn't let you modify the firmware because I'm smart enough to avoid additional work (read costs) for my legal and service/waranty departments. There is no advantage to giving users this information and a *lot* of pitfalls. You really are stupid.

You really don't have a clue.
--
Keith

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
krw wrote:

Wouldn't you love to see Phil try to learn how a DSP or FIR filter works? I had the full schematics of the Microdyne RCB-2000 on my bench All 38 size 'D' drawings. A lot of the testing was done with a Fireberd BER test set. That is something you won't find in a ham's shack. I had over a half million dollars worth of test equipment on my bench, and the product line had about 5 million dollars worth of test equipment.
Large sections were a half dozen or more blocks of programmable logic connected together. It required multiple programming interfaces and programs. The computer on my bench had three parallel ports, and I could have used a half dozen more, on top of that. I had a Needham's EMP-20 to program the CPU for the front panel interface, and a connection to the engineering server to download all the versions of firmware written for different customers. and rev levels.
Phil is a hopeless idiot. He has no clue what damage his 'custom firmware' could do to a piece of modern electronics. You don't 'improve' firmware for modern electronics. It has to be written exactly one way, to perform the job at hand.
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:
| Wouldn't you love to see Phil try to learn how a DSP or FIR filter | works? I had the full schematics of the Microdyne RCB-2000 on my bench | All 38 size 'D' drawings. A lot of the testing was done with a Fireberd | BER test set. That is something you won't find in a ham's shack. I had | over a half million dollars worth of test equipment on my bench, and the | product line had about 5 million dollars worth of test equipment.
Try to learn? I've done it in software/firmware before. So what if I have never designed a DSP chip.
| Large sections were a half dozen or more blocks of programmable logic | connected together. It required multiple programming interfaces and | programs. The computer on my bench had three parallel ports, and I | could have used a half dozen more, on top of that. I had a Needham's | EMP-20 to program the CPU for the front panel interface, and a | connection to the engineering server to download all the versions of | firmware written for different customers. and rev levels.
Did you write actual assembly language code, or just push a few drag and drop blocks across the screen.
| Phil is a hopeless idiot. He has no clue what damage his 'custom | firmware' could do to a piece of modern electronics. You don't | 'improve' firmware for modern electronics. It has to be written exactly | one way, to perform the job at hand.
Look who's talking.
And clueless about firmware, at that. It is NOT true at all that there is only one way to do things. Of course, there are WRONG ways to do things that can do damage in many cases (for example voltage control). If you think I don't know that, you aren't thinking (but I've known this for quite a while, as it showed in some of your earliests posts).
But it is absolutely true that there _is_ more than one way to do things. And this is _especially_ true for some of the crapware programmed into many consumer electronics these days (like in most TVs, cable STBs, etc).
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Sigh so much arrogance and ignorrance in one post. Any change in the DSP or logic array prigramming affects the timing. Of course, you have no idea, since you've never done anything with either. The schematic is nothing but data bus, control buss adress bus and power rails. Changing the DSP or FIR firmware affects how the digital signal is processed, and the recoverd signal. There was over three years of work on the design and testing of that prodcuct, with a minumum of six engineers at any time. You are nt going to do better in your home shop. All you would do is destroy the hardware by randomly uploading crap to the IC registers as you attempt to change things. Study the data sheets for some DSP or FIR ICs:
You have proven time after time that your reach exceeds your grasp.
http://www.intersil.com/products/pt/parametric_table_1500.asp We used several Harris devices, which are now Intersil.

If you're so damn smart, why aren't you working for one of the companies, or even better, design and manufacture your own products. Oh, that's right. You're just another blowhard with a callsign. 10-4 good buddy! I'll bet you're out of those 807s!
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

...
Wow; all that experience and you can still say that. Woof! How many times have you seen the same hardware with different functions and uses? All you change to get from one to another is ... wait for it ... the firmware! Careful; if you say never, you're either blind & inexperienced or lying.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

It was not I who "wrote" the tiny part of "Michael A. Terrell"'s post that you quoted. Nor did any of the others your posting software listed.
There are some things that can lend themselves to "modding" via a modified firmware, but it is highly unlikely that "phil-news- nospam" has gone from clueless about battery maintenance, at the beginning of this thread - to being able to "improve" the basic charging algorithms and sophisticated monitoring routines imbedded in today's charge controllers. Even modding the firmware of a DVD drive to be region free and changing speeds in the media tables, requires a detailed understanding of how the processing is implemented, not just the spec sheet data for the ICs involved.
This is a guy who wouldn't have the slightest idea how to set the options of a modern charge controller, to match a particular battery setup. He had no understanding of the impacts of the physical construction, chemistry, operational environment, or any other pertinent factor, and yet he now claims to be ready to improve on the firmware developed by the makers of the devices.
You will run into this kind of egotist, all the time in Internet postings, it is foolish to play their games, after they have exposed their true nature.
Luck; Ken
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
|
| wrote: |>>>>>>>> |> ... |>>... You don't |>> 'improve' firmware for modern electronics. It has to be written |>> exactly one way, to perform the job at hand. |> |> Wow; all that experience and you can still say that. Woof! How many |> times have you seen the same hardware with different functions and uses? |> All you change to get from one to another is ... wait for it ... the |> firmware! Careful; if you say never, you're either blind & inexperienced |> or lying. | | It was not I who "wrote" the tiny part of "Michael A. Terrell"'s post | that you quoted. Nor did any of the others your posting software | listed.
It looks like he got the header quoting wrong. It should at the end have stated that Michael A. Terrell (M.A.T.) wrote that. I double checked and saw MAT's post to see that it appears he really did (though I did not trace the posting path to be sure it wasn't forged by someone trying to make him look bad).
| There are some things that can lend themselves to "modding" | via a modified firmware, but it is highly unlikely that "phil-news- | nospam" has gone from clueless about battery maintenance, at | the beginning of this thread - to being able to "improve" the basic | charging algorithms and sophisticated monitoring routines | imbedded in today's charge controllers. Even modding the | firmware of a DVD drive to be region free and changing speeds | in the media tables, requires a detailed understanding of how the | processing is implemented, not just the spec sheet data for the | ICs involved.
Remember, I'm the one that ASKED about battery maintenance. Only a few people offered genuine clues. The rest, like MAT and KRW, offered nothing or wasted time making personal attacks.
Once I do understand exactly what is involved in battery maintenance, then I will be able to program firmware or hostware to manage it. It sure seems to be that _this_ place is not a place to learn anything.
| This is a guy who wouldn't have the slightest idea how to set | the options of a modern charge controller, to match a particular | battery setup. He had no understanding of the impacts of the | physical construction, chemistry, operational environment, or | any other pertinent factor, and yet he now claims to be ready | to improve on the firmware developed by the makers of the | devices.
Once I do know the battery related issues, then yes, I will be able to apply that to fireware because I already have the programming and system hardware knowledge to do that. It's the battery maintenance physics I'm still trying to learn.
| You will run into this kind of egotist, all the time in Internet | postings, it is foolish to play their games, after they have | exposed their true nature.
You have some difficulty in understanding programming, it seems. One does NOT need to learn the science of what is to be controlled before learning to do the programming to control it. I already have the programming skills. This, like any other project, involves combining the ALREADY EXISTING PROGRAMMING SKILLS with the science of the application (in this case, batteries) and then it can be done. So I am _ready_ as soon as I know the battery science. And based on what information is available now, it sure appears that a lot of that is going to have to be acquired through scientific experimentation. There seems to be very very few people here who really know the subject.
I never assumed anyone here would teach it all. What I was hoping for was a civil discussion. But until idiots like MAT and KRW leave and stay away, it looks like such things cannot happen.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HAH!
I have NEVER seen Rev 1.0 firmware in a production device. More typically it is 3 or above with a page ot two of change history at the start of the source code.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.