Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?

The best information I have seen on making aluminum wire branch circuit connections and fixing old installations is at:
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is based extensive research, primarily for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, which looked at causes of failures of aluminum connections. The paper gives detailed procedures for making different kinds of connections and also other advice. A common theme is that aluminum oxide is a major cause of failure and aluminum wires should have antioxide paste applied then the wire abraded to remove oxides before making a connection. The author specifically does not like the Ideal #65 wire nut which, as far as I know, is the only wire nut that has been UL listed for aluminum wire.
Aluminum oxide, an insulator, forms very rapidly on a clean aluminum surface. Its formation is produced by the high reactivity of aluminum, not aluminum to other metal contact.
Devices for aluminum wire are marked CO/ALR.
bud--
Reply to
Bud--
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This is from The Canadian Electrical Code Rule 12-112 Conductor joints and splices (1) Unless made with solderless wire connectors,joints or spices in insulated conductors shall be soldered, but they shall first be made mechanically and electrically secure.
Rule 12-116 Termination of conductors (1) The portion of stranded conductors to be held by wire-binding terminals or solderless wire connectors shall have the strands confined so that there will be no stray strands to cause either short-circuits or grounds.
My Interpretation : Solder could be used to confine the strands!
Reply to
not i
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:05:19 -0500, not i Gave us:
What part of "Unless made with solderless wire connectors" do you not understand?
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The remark about exposed strands is so that assemblers and inspectors can keep vigilant about making sure that their strip lengths and insertion depths are kept tightly spec'd when using crimp style connectors.
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It isn't something you "interpret". It IS something where you follow the instructions given you by an inspector that DOES know what is going on. You obviously do not.
Sometimes I think that some of you "interpret" people need to be "confined" so that there will be no stray bullshit spewed into a technical newsgroup.
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message news:43e12c2e$0$87295$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aaisp.net.uk...
I am in the industrial controls business and work with stranded wire extensively, especially finely stranded wire in challenging environments. It is almost pervasively common that manufacturers supply equipment with the wire ends dipped in solder, I have never seen those loosen to any degree more than non soldered ends,
the soldered ends seem to be much more reliable and preferred. Thats after 40 years in the business across a broad spectrum of industrial applications, nuclear, petrochemical, semiconductor, food and marine applications.... including DDC applications.
Crimp connectors also work. they are less reliable than factory or field soldered ends under a screw in marine or industrial corrosive environments however.
Phil Scott
Reply to
Phil Scott
that would be good, especially in a corrosive environment.
RE the govt training courses on the issue, one of the primary features one notices with government is incompetence, followed closely by insanity and bad practices. Thank god very few industrial controls manufacturers adopt such loopy practices.
Phil Scott
Reply to
Phil Scott
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:10:49 -0800, "Phil Scott" Gave us:
I suggest that you contact AMP or MOLEX and ask them.
Your remarks about the military show a lack of knowledge as well.
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs
:
: > : > : >> On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" : >> Gave : >> us: : >> : >>>In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS : >>>rather than a : >>>written rule? : >>> : >>>Pop : >> : >> Absolutely not. : >> : >> Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad : >> practice for any : >> compression type connection. : > : > Just curious, what is the opinion for the following: : > crimping the : > connection, and THEN soldering it? : : that would be good, especially in a corrosive environment. : : RE the govt training courses on the issue, one of the primary : features one notices with government is incompetence, followed : closely by insanity and bad practices. Thank god very few : industrial controls manufacturers adopt such loopy practices.
Such a blanket statement, although true in some areas, is far from true as a blanket, plus exposes the fact that you have no real familiarity with the subject at hand. Not only that, but if you think "industrial controls manufacturer" don't and haven't used things like soldering techinques and methodologies, you're going to be grossly wrong in your overal picture you're trying to paint. You, along with several others have taken a good question asked by one who only needed a simple but reliable answer and have turned it into a crapfest of who knows what about what, and very few of the comments have had any real basis in fact, let along related to the OP's quest.
Reply to
Pop
absolutely correct in almost all applications including large commercial applications.
In industrial and marine applications and of course with electronics the practice is common and on corrosive environments, necessary.
here are some links
220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.
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There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations)
Phil Scott
Reply to
Phil Scott
Not only correct but the only way to go in many cases... it seems most on the NG are house wiring guys and applying NEC as they see it in homes etc...but not of course in the industrial markets.
. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common.
Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends.
This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.
Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects.
Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations.
For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits.
The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.)
Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)
Reply to
Phil Scott
Correct...you do not solder wire before it goes into a crimped connector...but you do after it goes into a solder socket connector and there are crimped connectors made to be soldered as well of course.
. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common.
Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends.
This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.
Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects.
Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations.
For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits.
The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.)
Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)
Reply to
Phil Scott
"Billy H"
Maybe our friend Roy will.
. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common.
Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends.
This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.
Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects.
Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations.
For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits.
The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.)
.
220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.
formatting link
There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations)
Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)
Reply to
Phil Scott
well ...maybe Fuchsie is a closed mind etc... or maybe he is a romex wiring house type electrician... there are about 200 of those for everyone doing industrial contols and automation (where soldering stranded ends is pervasively common).
So...we get on the ng, this 200 to 1 ratio of insightability. Im sure Roy will respond appropriately to my posts on the topic... gentleman that he is, and realizing that the way to become an idiot is to defend ones current position...
As a consulting engineer the first thing I tell my clients is that they know more about their situation in many aspects than I do, and that I will be learning from them and formatting much or most of my recommendations based on what they know and have learned about their systems.. that works...and I am not then immune to learning myself.
. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common.
Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends.
This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.
Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects.
Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations.
For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits.
The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.)
.
220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.
formatting link
There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations)
Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)
Reply to
Phil Scott
"Billy H"
Thats interesting... and at the least reasonably valid possibly. Id like to hear more about that.
in the controls business of course the amperage very small so thats not an issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.
The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at a soldered in connection would make a good google search.... If I find anything on that I will post it.
Here is what I have so far though. but that could and may well be all related to electronics or control circuits...
. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common.
Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends.
This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.
Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects.
Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations.
For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits.
The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.)
.
220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.
formatting link
There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations)
Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)
Reply to
Phil Scott
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:50:22 -0800, "Phil Scott" Gave us:
What a silly thing to say.
Not true. In corrosive environments (like your marine scenario) standard non-gas tight connectors are not spec'd. If they are used, they will corrode. A gas tight connector must be used, and that too, would NOT require any solder.
The huge crimped terminal on a commercial battery cable is NOT a gsa tight termination. What does get used gets soldered because that is the only way they can give the termination SOME life span.
Yet not seen in ANY marine environment where the proper fittings are used. Most consumer level crap won't have such overtly expensive hardware in it, hence the "workaround", with solder.
If the wire warms to the melt point temperature of solder, then there is a much larger underlying problem with the circuit or the wiring design. NO circuit wiring should EVER rise to that temperature in ANY non fault mode of operation. EVER.
It is not referred to as extrusion, it is called CREEP.
The military were the inventors of the gas tight crimped connection.
If the connection is gas tight, it will be vapor and liquid tight as well. If it is not made using gas tight methods, then it is open to a host of problems. Many of which solder still does not fix or address.
It varies from product producer to product producer as some of them conform tightly to proper manufacturing specs and some do not. That doesn't make those that do not "most if not all".
None of those will be crimp style connectors. It is either a solder terminal or a crimp terminal... not both.
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott" Gave us:
Nope. There are solder cup connectors that DO get soldered, and there are crimp type connectors. Find ONE crimp style connector that is meant, by design to be soldered. CITE!
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott" Gave us:
Why did you cut and paste the same tired old CRAP several times?
ONCE is enough, chucko.
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:18:17 -0800, "Phil Scott" Gave us:
Fuck you , retard! You have now posted the SAME cut and paste CRAP seven times or more. You need to bone up on Usenet, you retarded fuck!
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:23:15 -0800, "Phil Scott" Gave us:
Goddamned cut and paste retard!
Just so you know, in many circles what you did is considered SPAM.
Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

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