Kitchen remodel & wiring

Will be redoing the kitchen completely. Kitchen is approx 50 feet at opposite corner of house. Need to run several 20 amp lines, lighting
lines, dishwasher , refrig , electric oven.
Instead of running all these lines to the service panel is a subpanel in the basebent below the kitchen the better or proper way to go. Live in westchester county New York.
Appreciate any help, Thanks
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A sub panel does solve the problem of a full main panel but for what you are talking about there is very little other advantage. If I had the slots I would just home run back to the main panel.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Greg) wrote in

I'll bet if you figure the cost of the 12-2 for the homeruns to the box, vs the cost of the wire required to carry the full load in the subpanel, you will be even money or money ahead to just do the homeruns out of 12-2. Yea, there is more of them, but 12-2 is cheap ($30/250 ft) and stove cable is not bad. 1/0 (x3 + panel costs) is not.
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| A sub panel does solve the problem of a full main panel but for what you are | talking about there is very little other advantage. If I had the slots I would | just home run back to the main panel.
I've been working on the design of a future house. I've got about 5 active floor plans I'm still working on. A couple weeks ago I did a rough circuit count on one of the floor plans and came up with 90. Obviously I do need at least 3 panels (or 2 if I can trim the circuit count down to 80). At this point, would you think it better to have all the panels at one place and run all the wires down to it, or would it be better to split things into subpanels?
My thinking is that instead of 2 or 3 225 amps panels, I'd go with 4 or 5 100 amp subpanels fed from the main panel (225 amps or more). The "electronics room" (lots of computers, servers, audio/video equipment, etc) will have its own. And the kitchen will either have its own or the main panel will be located next to the kitchen. There will also be feeds to detached ham shack and detached garage (unless I end up making the garage be the service drop point, in which case the house-garage feed will go the other way). I'd prefer a 125 amp feeder cable instead of a couple dozen 20 amp cables for runs in each direction.
Of course if one is just adding a couple new circuits in an existing house, I would not generally see that as justifying adding a new panel. But with subpanels put it initially, such additions would be simpler.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

You are going to need feeder supplied panels in each detached structure because the US NEC requires that each building have only one circuit supplying it except under special circumstances that usually do not apply to homes. Since you will want telephone service to the ham shack you will need to use a four wire feeders to supply it. Each building will need a grounding electrode system but you would want one for the ham shack anyway. In new construction the foundation reinforcing steel is the best grounding electrode system that can be economically installed. In the ham shack you will want to install a true UFER grounding electrode array in which the entire floor and footer is the grounding electrode. This is done by not using plastic to line the footer and floor forms and having all of the reinforcing steel double tied with tie wire. One piece of galvanized rebar is then stubbed up out of the top of the footer at the location of the building disconnecting means.
One way to proceed on your service equipment would be to put in two, two hundred ampere, main breaker panels at the service point. If you need more than two hundred amperes for the house than you would have the service point there. The reason that I say that is that once you get past two hundred amperes through one panel or switch the cost of equipment more than doubles. If the load calculation for the house comes out to less than two hundred amperes then you can place the service point at the garage and only run the one two hundred ampere feeder to the house.
Since you are an amateur radio operator you may want to consider arranging for emergency power for the house and the ham shack. That way you can be a resource to the entire community in the event of a disaster. The NEC has a specific exception for additional circuits for emergency power to separate buildings. The cost of a generator connection to your home is less than one hundred dollars if it is done at the same time as the original construction.
If you want to explore any of these concepts further you can contact me by Email. -- Tom H
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When I was a state electrical inspector we did several buildings with extraordinary grounding requirements (toll booths and radio equipment shelters under tall towers) The system was 40' ground rods at the corners, tied together with a 1/0 ground ring 24-36" down. This was connected at 20' intervals to the footer steel and slab mesh. They did put the Visqueen under the slab for vapor control but it was not used in the footer which had full contact with earth. The outer 20' #5 rebar sticks were electrically bonded together where the radials from the ground ring came in. (everything was CadWeld'ed) This all terminated in a big, solid copper plate where the connections to the service and other grounding/bonding happened. W_Tom would have a hard on if he saw it. I had a little tingle myself. ;-)
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| When I was a state electrical inspector we did several buildings with | extraordinary grounding requirements (toll booths and radio equipment shelters | under tall towers) | The system was 40' ground rods at the corners, tied together with a 1/0 ground | ring 24-36" down. This was connected at 20' intervals to the footer steel and | slab mesh. They did put the Visqueen under the slab for vapor control but it | was not used in the footer which had full contact with earth. | The outer 20' #5 rebar sticks were electrically bonded together where the | radials from the ground ring came in. (everything was CadWeld'ed) | This all terminated in a big, solid copper plate where the connections to the | service and other grounding/bonding happened. | W_Tom would have a hard on if he saw it. | I had a little tingle myself. | ;-)
Sounds like what I want :-)
Actually, I won't have the kind of structure involved, so I don't need to do all that. But the ground rods in each corner and a ground ring system with a big solid (except for a few bolt holes) copper plate are in the plans. That is in addition to lots of radials spreading out through the ground (exact length will depend on what real estate this goes on).
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| You are going to need feeder supplied panels in each detached structure | because the US NEC requires that each building have only one circuit | supplying it except under special circumstances that usually do not | apply to homes. Since you will want telephone service to the ham shack | you will need to use a four wire feeders to supply it. Each building
Phone and cable TV to the ham shack will be over fiber optic.
But, let me ask this semi-hypothetical question (because there is some remote possibility I would do this). What if I power the ham shack entirely with a generator located there with a fuel not involving a metalic pipe running to it?
| will need a grounding electrode system but you would want one for the | ham shack anyway. In new construction the foundation reinforcing steel
Of course the ham shack needs a grounding system ... and a very good one.
| is the best grounding electrode system that can be economically | installed. In the ham shack you will want to install a true UFER | grounding electrode array in which the entire floor and footer is the | grounding electrode. This is done by not using plastic to line the | footer and floor forms and having all of the reinforcing steel double | tied with tie wire. One piece of galvanized rebar is then stubbed up | out of the top of the footer at the location of the building | disconnecting means.
The grounding system needs to be maintainable for the ham shack. Every part of it will need to be removeable and replaceable. Of course that would involve digging up the radials, but it should not involve tearing down the structure.
| One way to proceed on your service equipment would be to put in two, two | hundred ampere, main breaker panels at the service point. If you need | more than two hundred amperes for the house than you would have the | service point there. The reason that I say that is that once you get | past two hundred amperes through one panel or switch the cost of | equipment more than doubles. If the load calculation for the house | comes out to less than two hundred amperes then you can place the | service point at the garage and only run the one two hundred ampere | feeder to the house.
What method do you suggest for connect the two panels together? For a 400 amp service (as opposed to a 200 amp service with more than 42 circuit breaker spaces), that would rule out using feed-through lugs. But there are still three other ways to do it. 1: double lug on the meter with feeders rated 200 amps each (most power companies and local inspectors frown on this). 2: use a separate raceway to split or tap, maybe with a terminal block, using 400 amp feeder from meter to the point of split. 3: use 400 amp double lugs on the first panel and feed the 2nd panel from there (this is not generally an option with MCB panels).
| Since you are an amateur radio operator you may want to consider | arranging for emergency power for the house and the ham shack. That way | you can be a resource to the entire community in the event of a | disaster. The NEC has a specific exception for additional circuits for | emergency power to separate buildings. The cost of a generator | connection to your home is less than one hundred dollars if it is done | at the same time as the original construction.
The generator is already being planned, though it will probably not be put in initially; I'll still plan for it in the design. The ham shack may get one first. But a generator serving the house will be in or just outside of the detached garage. If utility service comes in at the house, then there will be a subfeed from house to garage while there is also a generator feed from the garage to the house. This would require two transfer switches to keep it all isolated. But if utility service comes in at the garage, then one transfer switch can be used, and two feeders can be sent to the house, one for emergency use, and one for utility.
Due to the construction of most of these house plans involving an A-frame architecture plus porch structures front and back, bringing utility to the house might be difficult. If the utility can accept a meter being placed about 3 feet about ground (underground feed), then I can make it work with a single full-service disconnect. The problem is that the main panel (by this reference I mean the first box with branch breakers, not the main disconnect, if separate) won't be near where the meter can be. There would probably be 20-30 feet of run from the meter to the panel all inside the house, and that's not good w/o a disconnect or protection from short circuit. But if I run this from the garage, then the protection will be present even if remote.
The thing is, I really don't think I'll be using over 225 amps in the house. But add the garage, shop, and ham shack plans, and that certainly can drive it over 225 amps (this being the highest capacity panels before the prices start to skyrocket). My current thought it so put in a 225 amp single breaker (such as a Square-D QDL22225) in a 400 amp sized enclosure (for the wiring space), and put double lugs on the input side of that. Connect a 125 amp MCB panel to the input side of the unit breaker (the double lugging), and let the 225 amp breaker just feed the house (back underground again).
Another odd question, since you seem to know much more than I do about the NEC ... how do they define a "circuit" with respect to the feeder limits? If I were to put in a 4-wire three phase wye circuit, that clearly would be considered a circuit. But what if I were to put in a 7-wire 6-pole three phase circuit (some generators I have seen can do this even without a transformer)?
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Replies are in line
snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

If there is no utility service to the shack then you would follow the rules for a separately derived system. You would still need a grounding electrode system for that system.

I suspect that you are confusing the antenna grounding radials with the required utility system grounding. The radials you are talking about do not meet the requirements for grounding electrodes that are contained in the US NEC.

Item one is very commonly used, cost effective and acceptable in every part of the country I have worked so far the only catch is that the two sets of service conductors must be sized from the regular ampacity tables rather than the table for dwelling services since neither one is what the code calls "the main power feeder to a dwelling unit." It may be worth your time to require that whoever objects to your use of that method must quote you chapter and verse on what makes that technique unacceptable.
Using a gutter as in item two is the same thing electrically but it is more work and more expensive. Item three I have never seen but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it. I have never seen a 225 ampere panel with a main breaker that was fitted with multi barreled lugs.

Remote protection is not enough. Each building must have a building disconnecting means that in most respects is identical to a service disconnecting means. A remote disconnecting means is only acceptable on agricultural properties or premises with an electrical staff on site.

Take a look at the Square D meter mains assembly that is built for four hundred ampere service.

Even though I worked a year in air force power production and installed more engine alternator sets than I would care to have to maintain I have never worked on a three phase circuit that had more than three poles. In fact I have never heard of such an animal so I cannot advise. -- Tom H
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| I suspect that you are confusing the antenna grounding radials with the | required utility system grounding. The radials you are talking about do | not meet the requirements for grounding electrodes that are contained in | the US NEC.
They may not meet code, but they will work better. But I won't depend on that as there will be stakes driven as well (at least 4).
| Remote protection is not enough. Each building must have a building | disconnecting means that in most respects is identical to a service | disconnecting means. A remote disconnecting means is only acceptable on | agricultural properties or premises with an electrical staff on site.
Due to the design of the house (A-frame with porches) the options to put a the entrance are limited. Where the roof spreads out from the back porch is viable, but has 2 issues. The space to put a meter is limited (the meter might have to be lower in position that the power company likes) and the run from that point to where the main branch panel is will be at least 20 feet inside and maybe more. A disconnect could be put on a side closet outdoors on the porch, but it won't meet the dimensions needed for an electrical area due to limited height up to where the wall starts to angle for the roof. By having a 225 breaker in the garage feeding the house from there, at least every part of the path is protected at 225 amps. I'll have to calculate at the time of construction if I have enough fault current to trip the breaker safely (if not, I'll probably have too much voltage drop on motor starts, too).
| Take a look at the Square D meter mains assembly that is built for four | hundred ampere service.
That just puts the breaker in another position. I suppose it would be cheaper that way. but it has to be a lockable enclosure.
| Even though I worked a year in air force power production and installed | more engine alternator sets than I would care to have to maintain I have | never worked on a three phase circuit that had more than three poles. | In fact I have never heard of such an animal so I cannot advise.
Feed three separate single transformers with 120/240 secondary from three phase power. Connect all three center taps together with a bond to ground. You now have 6 phase wires, 1 neutral, and of course ground. I have found 6-pole breakers to handle this, but not larger than 100 amps. If I were to do this, that would be enough power for a house. It would make it easier to make efficient use of a three phase generator (no double delta wiring) and still be workable with single phase utility power (as long all loads are either 120 or 240 volts).
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wrote:

are
would
Gees is this residence 25000 square feet?
Are you using the calculations per the NEC for LOAD calculations or are you just having a lot of single pole breakers feeding separate loads? If you using separate loads as separate breakers I suggest that you consider some load sharing circuits. Your going to pay a bunch for the privilege of what your proposing to do. I tried to install a 600 amp 3 phase service on a house once. The city would only allow a 500 amp service. Saying that there was no reason for a house to have a 600 amp service. There was a guest house 3 full kitchens 2 steam rooms, and my favorite 60 tons of a/c on the garage ( 8 double bays ). The whole thing calculated at less than 400 amps. I got a deal on the 600 so I put that in.
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| wrote: |> |> | A sub panel does solve the problem of a full main panel but for what you | are |> | talking about there is very little other advantage. If I had the slots I | would |> | just home run back to the main panel. |> |> I've been working on the design of a future house. I've got about 5 |> active floor plans I'm still working on. A couple weeks ago I did a |> rough circuit count on one of the floor plans and came up with 90. |> Obviously I do need at least 3 panels (or 2 if I can trim the circuit |> count down to 80). At this point, would you think it better to have |> all the panels at one place and run all the wires down to it, or would |> it be better to split things into subpanels? | | | Gees is this residence 25000 square feet?
No. I'll have a better idea once the floor plan is done. Adding up an older version I was working on came to 2450 square feet.
| Are you using the calculations per the NEC for LOAD calculations or are you | just having a lot of single pole breakers feeding separate loads? If you | using separate loads as separate breakers I suggest that you consider some | load sharing circuits. Your going to pay a bunch for the privilege of what | your proposing to do. I tried to install a 600 amp 3 phase service on a | house once. The city would only allow a 500 amp service. Saying that there | was no reason for a house to have a 600 amp service. There was a guest | house 3 full kitchens 2 steam rooms, and my favorite 60 tons of a/c on the | garage ( 8 double bays ). The whole thing calculated at less than 400 amps. | I got a deal on the 600 so I put that in.
It's lots of separate circuits. I intentionally do not want to share loads on receptacles between rooms, though lights will be OK. But I do not think I will need more than 225 amp service. Still, I'll probably figure the design to make it relatively easy to upgrade to 400 amps just in case that turns out ot be needed. For example, I'll be sure there is space for a 2nd panel where the first panel goes, so I don't have to jump up to a 400 amp panel.
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My wife builds $750k 2500 sq/ft houses with 200a panels and that includes pool, spa, maybe a sauna plus a fully equipped kitchen with every doodad people can think of.
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| house once. The city would only allow a 500 amp service. Saying that there | was no reason for a house to have a 600 amp service. There was a guest | house 3 full kitchens 2 steam rooms, and my favorite 60 tons of a/c on the | garage ( 8 double bays ). The whole thing calculated at less than 400 amps. | I got a deal on the 600 so I put that in.
What city would not allow more than 500 amps? Or was that no more than 500 amps unless you pay commercial installation costs?
My response: OK, 500 amps it is ... I'll have it in 480Y/277 then :-)
That would be the equivalent power as 1732 amps at 240 volts if anyone is interested. If I was going to take that much power I'd rather have the higher voltage, anyway. Fortunately I'm not that rich. I guess they don't have billionaires like Bill Gates building giant mansions in town.
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