Locksmithing Business

That doesn't mean he knows anything about carpentry. Just means he is an organzied and detail person.

Was hopeing I could maybe get some questions answered here. CY: I'll do what I can.

I'm in search of a new career, been sitting behind a desk to long and I hate it. Locksmithing is somehting that I've had an interest in. CY: Having an interest is very good. Keeps you motivated.

So I checked salary.com and I see that working for someone else, the salary falls shy of what I need to pay the bills. CY: Get smaller bills? Seriously, you'd be amazed what you can live without.

Without getting to nosey, I was hoping some of you self employeed folks could tell me how a beginner, doing mostly lockouts, could hope to do in this industry. CY: I registered my business in August of 1986. During 1985, I'd been working for a locksmith in Rochester, NY. We did maybe three or four lockouts a week, at an average of $40 each. I presently live in a suburb, and I do an average of two lockout a month. I'd have to check the stats, but that feels about right. Two or three a month.

Thanks for any help or insight you can give. CY: You are allowed to ask more questions if you wish. I will be as honest as possible, unless it's opening or lock defeating instructions.

Gary

What's that got to do with anything?

depends on the school. most locksmiths schools I have seen doesn't teach much other than plain basics. the one that I used (which is no longer in business) didn't even do a good job ot that.

I did my apprenticeship from him for 5 years. I had training from him and 4 other different CML's all at the same time. I couldn't have paid for better training. see above

wrong... its not "clear" or "arrogant" at all. see above

in this field, an aprintaceship is the only way to go. the schools available (might?) help get ones foot in the door for continuing training, but thats about it ! see my first answer.

that would work !

g'day to you & yours Shiva

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61-#spamblock*-@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:dNiDe.52936$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

which would make a good carpenter with proper training. whats you point?

Without any specific [formal] training in Locksmithing:

Having only taken three classes in computers in college so far, I sure that I could easily read a manual on Access Control systems and be just fine...

I have a vast knowledge of electrical wiring and alarm equipment... (see my recent post on the fire alarm strobes) and am very good at figuring out circuitry having spent the last year and a half of my high school career in the electrical shop trade program... So again, give me the circuit diagrams and the manual and I will be just fine...

I understand masterkeying and could design a system to fit the requirements of a 30 story highrise building if I was in on the keying conference... I understand A2 I/C pinning... I know how to use keycutting equipment to duplicate/originate keys...

Now imagine if I had specific training at a REAL school hands-on under the supervision of a locksmith... I would have six to nine months of practice UP FRONT, before you would have ever met me...

It is great that you are able to teach someone so much in so little time, but that WILL AFFECT your productivity while you are doing that training...

Which is good, but in a REAL training program, factory and industry certifications are possible... You had to learn as you went along to earn your certifications, imagine hiring someone who had some at the time you hired them...

Apprentices and the whole process of apprenticing is a wonderful time honored tradition that should continue, but wouldn't it be a better business decision to hire someone with knowledge and experience up front... Apprentices are "open minded" because their entire existence as a lcoksmith is dependent on your approval of them, they won't learn if you won't teach them... A student has earned a degree (or diploma) and has some level of certification and may be "less open minded" but comes with a set of semantical knowledge and prior experience, yet chooses to work for someone else until they feel they have enough working time to go at it for themselves if they wish to... Its a whole different set of circumstances...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61-#spamblock*-@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:NUiDe.52940$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

has to do with, jumping in before checking the situation out first. kinda like, broadcasting when one should have been tuning in.

first morning on the job will show it up if he is NOT..but, the kid did get a chance..

--Shiva--

you drive enough nails, you just do it while talking.. and good day to you as well.. its HOT here.. forecast is calling for 100's latter part of the week --Shiva--

So you are generalizing that a "correspondence course" is a school... There are in existence around a dozen REAL schools that have been around for a long time in big cities throughout the country that could teach someone much more in nine months than you, or any other locksmith, living or dead, could ever hope to do in one week... Period...

Your apprenticeship was a good thing, and you are among the lucky ones out there to have learned from so many qualified tradespeople during your initial training period... Not every apprentice is so lucky...

Yes it is very arrogant... Knowing and understanding the CONTENT that you are teaching is totally different from knowing HOW TO TEACH IT to people who learn in different ways... Without formal education in how to teach, it is very arrogant to say that you have any idea how to teach what you know to another person... You might be able to show someone something over and over so that they can memorize it, but how can you truly tell if they have really learned how to do it and aren't just amazed at something AUTOMAGICAL ??? That they happen to be able to do...

Really ???

How would you feel about someone who has passed through a program which gave them the following experience:

Two Weeks of: Identifying Keys and Keyways, Duplicating and Machining Keys

Five weeks of: Impressioning, Opening and Servicing locks

Two Weeks of: Cutting/Originating keys from codes

Four Weeks of: Lock Servicing and Repair

Four Weeks of: Masterkeying

Two Weeks of: I/C, Medeco and high security locks

Eight Weeks of: Lock Installation and Adjustment

Four Weeks of: Safe Manipulation and Servicing

Three Weeks of: Access Control and Alarm Locks

Two Weeks of: Auxiliary Door Hardware

Three Weeks of: Automotive Lock Servicing

That is just about nine months of hands-on training... Are you really saying that you would still hire someone as an apprentice off the street with little if any experience or a student that graduated the above program from a trade school in Boston...

Or are you still insisting that you would be able to cover even "the basics" of all of that in ONE WEEK ???

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

99 here and that doesn't include that darn heat factor.

a "correspondence course" is a type of school. however, I realize an apprenticeship is more of a "school"

sure they will but that's not a real comparison Evan. however, in my opinion,

9 months of an on the job apprenticeship. would teach one more than 9 months of any locksmith school thats available.

agree, I was very lucky.

whats seems "arrogant" is that you know absolutly nothing about me or my abilities to teach a craft that I have had 23+ years expierence in profecting. (no pun intended)

when they can complete a given job on their own without asking for help. they have learned.

that wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that could be enough time.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

that also wouldn't be enough time to learn it all.

my point is, they would still have a lot to learn.

thats around 9 months of classroom training with probably 20 or so other people. not the same as 9 months of on the job apprinticeship being exposed to it all. yes, I would rather hire an apprentice and then I would know what they have learned firsthand. in the same 9 months that apprentice will have learned more phases of the business then he would have in just a few hours in just some phases of the business.

I didn't make that statement to start with. however, my point has been, if the same person spends the same "X" amount of time as an apprentice, as they would in school ? they would have learned more of the locksmith business as an apprentice.

let me ask you something Evan ? in your first 12 years of school. (grades 1-12) did you learn more than you did in your next 12 years of life? not everything in school is useful in real life.

no pun has been intended

In 23 years on the job, no one can learn everything there is to know, one can become proficient about what it is that they do, and continue to learn... You yourself may still "have a lot to learn"...

Well, I guess that you can afford to adequately supervise them during that nine month training period to ensure that they have learned... Sounds rather expensive to me, and wouldn't checking up on your apprentice all of the time make you a bit less productive than normal ??? After all, time is money in this business, right ???

I was a "non-traditional learner" who worked since I was 15, in REAL and useful jobs, not retail or foodservice industry like so many youth have their first employment experiences... Also I did learn many useful things at the trade school I attended that helped me very much in my previous job as a maintenance man...

Im sorry that I can not compare the 12 years of school that I experienced along with many other children in the US, to the

12 years followig high school like that, I am in college at the present time, and only just a little bit past halfway through that time period... You learn different things in the real world then that which is taught in a classroom, however without the knowledge that is imparted onto you in that classroom you most likely will not be able to understand things as fully as someone who has the education...

I agree that not EVERY job requires an education, however those that wish "success" in this world MUST have one, unless they are so talented that they can invent something ONCE and live off the licensing revenues until they die...

:Let me ask you how many apprentices you have trained in your 23 years as a locksmith??? Maybe a couple -- possbily as many as one or two a year... Of those, how many are still in the trade ??? Don't confuse teaching someone enough to suit your needs as being an effective teacher... There is a whole lot more to it than that, and you still aren't sure exactly how they are learning it, only that it is being learned... How much time might you be wasting explaining it to someone if they learn by seeing it rather than hearing about it... Or maybe you are showing someone how to do it when they need to read about it themselves in order to understand and learn... Until you have hundreds of people that you have taught sill working in the trade, you still have "more to learn" about teaching... As you have not yet even scratched the surface...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

never said I knew it all. I know very well that I don't and no one does. no matter what profession...

actually in my opinion, I believe that an apprintace in this profession will be working at it for at least 5 years before they can really call themselfs a locksmith. I never believed in watching over ones shoulder. one usually does a better job on their own without the extra stress. I will eventually know how they have done because what goes around, always comes back around. and yes it is "rather expensive". however, in the end, I know exactly what type employee I will have. I will also be better informed as to the type person they are. because of the one on one relationship that we would have developed.

got that from your earlyer days of posting to this group.

thats understandable...

have to disagree a bit with that. I did not finish HS because of certain (personal) obsticals in my way at the time and had to take a G.E.D. it made me have to work hard for what I needed or wanted. work is the only way I knew to survive. I could have went to college later. my family was wealthy, money was never a concearn. it just wasn't in the cards for me, ya know? I have no regrets. I have been pretty heathy, have done what I wanted, raised two daughters (still doing a little of that) had a good time and enjoyed my life. I have not been rich in monatary means but have been filthy rich in many other ways.

only two. one for 20 years. the other for 7.

both and they have always been with me. one is my son-inlaw and actually he runs the business these days. I am semi-retired. I still do some things from time to time only because I like lock-work. I have other interest that I dabble in.

see above, actually I think I have done a good job of teaching the two. I really don't need to be active in the business to keep the doors open..

I like that time frame you called for..sounded about right for me..

--Shiva--

that's what I as told in the beginning and found out about 5 years later it was pretty accurate :-)