Looking for TRTL-15 or better gun safe.

google is your friend. g'luck

Dear Chris, You have specified a Jewlers Vault, which will be very heavy and very expensive- probably about $40,000 or better for a 12 gun capacity safe. My suggestion is that you purchase a good quality gun safe for about $1200.00, and then install it into a wall in your basement, pouring about a foot of concrete about it. Follow up with a good alarm system. snipped-for-privacy@bresnan.net

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Billy I know you are try to help and I do appreciate it but please read what I wrote again. I am looking for something with at a minimum a trtl-15 rating. If you know of a gun safe with this rating, especially in the

1200.00 range please tell me it's name because I would buy it today if I can. Please let me know because I can't find any. Most that I can find are not even B or C rated even on the door and their only claim to a UL rating seems to be for fire protection. With due respect I don't think that many would consider a trtl-15 with a fire rating a "jewlers vault". This term or similar seems to be reserved for the 30 and mostly 60 minute rated units. I have found a trtl-15 fire resistant unit that meets my current needs but leaves little room for expansion for as low as 2500.00 used. The interirior isn't really designed for guns but I could make it work in a pinch. This is at the low end of what I'm willing to spend. I am really just wondering if there are any gun safes that have this or better burglary ratings? I do understand the need to back up with an alarm but with police response being what it is I want something that will make even an expert work hard to beat it in the time the alarm response would allow.

It sounds like you may want to think in terms of "vault" rather than "safe". Finding something off-the-shelf with the volume you want and the security you're asking for is going to be tough; among other things, that sucker is going to be extremely heavy. Shipping in plates and constructing the box on site, then fitting a high-security door to it, may make more sense; the weight's still bad (check that your floor can handle it!) and you're now dealing with welding on site, but this gives you the flexibility in terms of protected space that you seem to be looking for.

Seriously, though: If you're willing to spend seriously money, you should hire a safe-and-vault expert to work with you on this, rather than asking here. Even though we do have some legitimate experts here, addressing a problem like yours is going to require sitting down and discussing *exactly* what your needs are and whether it is actually possible to address them for a price you're willing to pay.

Normally, I'd suggest that at this point you start talking to banks about storing your collection in their vault rather than building your own... but I somehow suspect that banks would be leery of storing firearms, even without ammunition.

"'Key" snipped-for-privacy@Ya.Net wrote in message news:3RY_g.21748$ snipped-for-privacy@tornado.texas.rr.com...

Thanks but I have looked at all these common models and haven't found any with the minimum rating I'm looking for. If you know of one how about the brand and model of it? The problem frankly seems to be that these are designed more for show than anything else. Take the Ft knox "Yeager" series. I count 26 locking bolts and yet see no mention of any specific UL burglary rating (most of the places that deal in gun safes dont even know what the ratings are so forget asking most of them). 26 door locking bolts on something advertised as having 3/16" steel???? Come on. This is for show. I have looked at a couple trtl-30 and 60's, one with an explosives rating that only had 6 or 8 bolts total.. A complete amateur with a sawzall could cut the whole side out of the Ft Knox before they could defeat one of these massive bolts. One bolt per side would be more than enough before the weak link became the thickness of the body itself. There was also an article written by Dave McOmie that made it into the public domain on just how easy it is to compromise these by nothing other than drilling at the locks well known drill point. I think there is a copy on this group. Everybody with even a casual interest in safes and security knows who Dave McOmie is and if he wrote it that way I have no doubt that that's the way it happened. It didn't sound like that safe had hardplate but the lack of a specific UL burglary rating on these leads me to believe even the one's with it wouldn't keep a pro waiting long.

No, they're designed for tamper resistance. As with some government safes, the goal is not so much to keep determined people out as to keep them from getting in *quietly* or without leaving plenty of evidence. That legitimately leads to a "strong lock on weaker box" design philosophy, which really is the optimal trade-off for that set of issues.

If you've got something which needs vault-level security, you aren't looking for a gun safe, even if guns are what you're going to put in it.

OK. I can't resist any longer. I admit I posted this to see how many locksmiths really know anything about safe security. I'm not going to leave the post up any longer than needed to prove the point. Key clearly doesn't. His links are for safes that don't come anywhere near meeting the criterion specified. Fort Knox? Come on. Point me to any Fort Knox with a trtl-15 rating. I will say that I think Key really was trying to be helpful but he just doesn't have the knowledge. This is a guy who has claimed to do government safe work. Billy, who I think really was trying to help too, thinks a trtl-15 is the kind of rating you would find on a jewlers safe. Only Joe really seems to have a handle on it. Thnaks Joe and sorry for wasting your time but your response will probably be helpful to somebody else who DAGS. How can locksmiths, (if Key really is a locksmith) not know things so basic? There are no 'gun safes' out there that meets the criterion I specified but only one out of three responses essentially said that. If I'm wrong somebody who actually is an expert please point me to the make and model and i will gladly stand corrected.

I'd also point out that, in fact, few burglars bring sawzalls or want to stand around making that much noise while they wait for the police -- or the homeowner, especially since it's clear that this homeowner may be armed, and that the "cast in concrete" solution may be enough to discourage those too (especailly if you embed alarm wires in the concrete). I really do suggest you pay someone to sit down with you and find a good engineering solution to the actual problem rather than jumping to a particular spec, since it sounds like some creative design is called for.

Yep Joe nailed it. Joe is the real deal. He isn't linking me to Fort Knox or doing Google searches on gun safe to answer the question. I will give Billy credit he evidently does know that the gun safe I specified doesn't exist and his concrete idea was decent but the door of a $1200 gun safe still doesn't provide trtl-15 level security which would leave me far short of my goal. Also a trtl-15 rating isn't what one would expect to find on a jewlers vault or safe unless they want their insurance company to pitch a fit.

I had decided I would only leave this post up until somebody gave me the answer I was looking for and would then come clean, so the rest of you who don't know what a real safe is thank Joe for posting before you did.

I have never come across same in any literature that I have seen.. one that size AND that rating will be VERY expensive.. --Shiva--

thats one of the 'forbidden items' as far as banks go..

suggestion.. got a basement? fine a used vauly DOOR.. and build a room, then cover the entire wall up with 'paneling' or similar.. this DOES REQUIRE a heavy duty dehumidifier tho.. BTDT, and know where 2 such rooms are at. and NOT at my house..

--Shiva--

I can't take credit for anything more than recognizing that there were two alternatives -- one being that you needed the security but were mis-describing it as a gun safe since those are the only ones commonly available in that sort of size, the other being that you did in fact want to protect guns but had no idea what kind of protection was actually reasonable. Everyone else seemed to be covering the second case adequately, so I swatted the former just for completeness. Especially since I noticed that price didn't seem to be an issue.

If there's a lesson here, it's to assume that *no* part of the customer's initial problem description is reliable until you've discussed what they're actually trying to accomplish, especially when they come in with a specific set of buzzwords that they may or may not understand. Ask questions, and listen especially closely when the answer you've suggested doesn't do it for them because that means there's something that hasn't been communicated clearly.

Tim... I dunno, guy. I'd call this borderline trolling, but as a puzzle and/or teaching exercise it actually might have some slight value. I'd still have suggested that you pose it explicitly as a puzzle, telling folks that you were going to deliberately play clueless customer and that there was at least one good solution they could find if they asked you the right questions. That would have come across as a friendly game; as it is, some folks may write you off as a smart-ass.

The responses are getting better. Key do you notice how he doesn't link me to websites that don't have what I asked for or DAGS for 'gun safe' and simply link to the result? Of course you guys might know who posted it now if my most recent posts have made it to your servers and are expecting a trap. But this was posted right after so I'll assume Shiva knows something about safes. Maybe I should have let the thread run longer to really get a good list of who does and doesn't know their stuff on here.

1) You can't _stop_ the thread unless you do a whole bunch of xenocancels, which would be considered significantly impolite. All you can do is drop out of it yourself. 2) It's a misleading result at best. A number of the participants here have forgotten more about locks than I know. I just happened to be the one to suggest alternatives, partly based on your responses to them.

Download the Gunsafe catalog. They list a TL-30.

Regards,

Andrew Wood

Chris wrote:

sounds like you need to stop thinking "gun safe" and focus on a burglar / jewelry safe that you can convert to use for your guns. JEWELRY SAFES TL-30

g'luck

"Tim Mathews" <Tim Mathews@ snipped-for-privacy@spamthis.net wrote in message

---snip timmy's crap---

ya know something timmy ? I am sick of you trolling my responses. you can kindly keep your trollish comments to yourself. you know nothing about me or my qualifications.

"Tim Mathews" <Tim Mathews@ snipped-for-privacy@spamthis.net wrote in message news:ol6%g.11314$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

again timmy.. you know nothing about me or my qualifications. I pegged you as a troll from the beginning. the more you run your mouth, the more you make my point.

no real need for your reply because I couldn't care less WTF you have to say !

"Joseph Kesselman" snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net wrote in message news:453cf0d7$1@kcnews01...

I agree and do look at timmy as a "smart-ass" troll...