New doors for church - do our own master keying?

Hi, all! Our church (we are in Florida) is about to invest in all new doors for the campus (about 30 exterior doors). I am not a locksmith, but I have spent time cutting keys, taking apart locks (cylinder, '20's boxes, etc), etc, so I am a little familiar with those aspects.

I was wondering what it would take to do our own keying for all of the locks (the old door locks are 30-50 years old - they will all be scrapped). I was thinking we could come up with our own master key system across the campus and be able to change locks whenever there seems to be "too many keys out" for a particular room (or like when a room changes its primary purpose or group use).

What would be needed for this? On the surface, I am assuming I need cylinders that can be pulled and keyed with multiple keys (multiple layers of pins) and the handles they go in, a key copier and or code cutter, lots of extra pins (for rekeying ro rebuilding), a few extra cylinders (in case of damage to existing), lots of blanks, and maybe a "DO NOT DUPLICATE" stamp and hammer.

Would I need to be a licensed locksmith to purchase some of these items? Should I take some (paid) training before walking down this path? Or are docs available online and through the manufacturer probably enough for me to set up a master key system and do the physical keying? (I am mechanically inclined and catch on quick)

I remember in college that some blanks normally not stocked by key copiers (like Sears, KMart, etc) - someone mentioned that some commercial blanks would be "blacked" out for areas in use so that it make it harder for folks to get them copied (those who should not be getting them copied). Is that true? Are there certain commercial locks we should look into or stay away from?

We are looking for fairly secure locks, but we don't really have much for anyone to steal in the first place (a church sanctuary,some classrooms, and some maintenance rooms), so probably not anything like medeco, but more than a 5 pin kwikset.

Nudges in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. I figured that since we are paying for all new doors and locks, why not spend a little more and do our own keys.

Reply to
Key Tinkerer
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too many doors

did a similar situation one time, 35 OS doors...

175 keys that they KNEW OF to the outside doors alone...

I asked do you REALLY need ALL those doors to be OPENABLE FROM the OS? turned out that only 3 doors needed to be, rekeyed ALL the other doors to 'something' and 1 person got those 2 keys, sold them 3 Assa cylinders to the remaining doors, PLUS 65 keys... the very NEXT week, ANOTHER 145 people called and were B******** about their key (that they should NOT have had) no longer worked...

key the OS doors ALIKE, and that key ONLY works those doors.. Masterkey all the inside doors, janitor, maintenance man, office staff and pastors get a copy of that key, and key everything else to individual keys. the classroom, etc people get a key to the OS door IF they need it ONLY, plus the key to 'their area'

you have a change in staff-you are limited in how many locks/keys you got to change out. fire ANYONE, and the OS doors get redone. then, maybe an IS area IF needed.

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

That is the way the building is - build in the 50's. Imagine this: classrooms/maint closets, fellowship hall, and main sanctuary all form a square with a courtyard in the middle. The access to the center is controlled by 3 iron gates (padlocks/chains) and one double door (hallway to the outside). Half of the classrooms have a door to the courtyard *and* a door to the exterior of the complex. Each classroom is cut off from the other classrooms - outside hallways. Imagine

1950's beach motel where every door is an outside door.

Some rooms we would want them to be able to get into without having to open the iron gates, that means their classroom outside door. That is just a few, though.

I was thinking of this: rooms with more than one door key the multiple doors alike. All maint closets keyed alike. All storage rooms keyed alike. All bathrooms keyed alike. All doors to the main offices (not the individual offices) keyed alike.

Then key each room differently - each classroom different from each other and different from each office which are different from each other which are different from maint and storage and main sacntuary, etc.

Then have a master key for all classrooms, one for all maint, storage, and bathrooms, and one for fellowship hall, main sanctuary, office entry, and any other external entries.

So, basically 3 master keys for all areas, individual keys for each room with multiple doors to each room being keyed alike.

I am sure I just took about 200 words to say what locksmiths would say in 30 words with the right jargon!

My goal is not to necessarily to become a locksmith (at least don't let my wife think so, she already thinks I have my hands in enough things!), but to save our church some money and time in the long run.

You have given me food for thought, though.... keying all OS the same and not giving it out - forcing folks to use inside doors and only use them when the facilities are open during the day or give them a key to one of the external entry points (like the double-doors to the courtyard)

Reply to
Key Tinkerer

I did all the locks for the church school where my wife teaches after they remodeled and added 5 classrooms. There were 35 doors. The pastor wanted every door lock in the school, classrooms, offices, entry doors to be keyed the same. I tried to explain to him that, at the least, his office, the school secretary's office, the bookkeeper's office and the school office should all have different keys, mainly because they rent out the meeting rooms at night, during the week, to people with substance abuse problems doing court ordered meetings as a condition of probation, along with AA and NA. I mentioned that it would be less expensive to get it all done at one time rather than paying a service fee every time I had come back. Nope, he wanted them all the same . I also told him that if he wanted a master key system, this was the time to do it. He wasn't interested.

About a month later the pastor wanted the lock on the door to his office to have a different key. I told him that it would be a good time to do the rest of the offices too but he wasn't interested. In the next 6 weeks I got called back 4 more times to rekey the offices. Last week he was talking about doing a master key system.

The moral of the story is try to think ahead about what you want and get it all done at the same time. If you are having a locksmith do the work, it's a lot less expensive than having the locksmith come back, again and again.

Skip

Reply to
Skip

Consider going with IC (interchangable core) you can carry the cores to your local locksmith and save the service call

If you keep a few extra sets around you can change the lock for temporary use and then change it back when that is no longer necessary.

The learnig curve is very quick (for the end user/ administrator) and you woun't have to learn a whole new skill just to change a few locks.

Reply to
no spam

You've had some really great counsell on this subject. I think that making only two or three exterior doors keyed is a splendid idea. After all, the inner doors are usually only an issue when the building is open.

Kwikset can provide locks already master keyed, but I suggest you avoid this route. They've only got a few master keys, and so if you do this the builder from the next town over might be using the same master key as you are using.

In my business, I install almost all Kwikset, unless we're matching another brand of lock. Yes, I know it's not the best quality lock on the market, but they are dependable, and I have few callbacks.

The sticking point for this job are a couple things. First, you'll need to be able to generate your own master chart, for the bittings (depths) of the keys. This isn't a complex task, but it does take some planning. And you have to know a lot about generating master key systems. That goes hand in hand with being able to plan for the needs of your church.

Second, you really oughta have a code cutting machine for genrating keys to your own codes. I paid $1100 for mine, in 1988. It was $1250 retail back then. I'm not sure what they cost now. Mine is a Framon II, which probably isn't the right machine for a one application job like yours. A HPC or a Keymak punch (if they make Kwisket carriages for that?) would be a better fit.

I don't reccomend shoebox masterkeying, which is my term. That's when you pick a random set of precut keys out of a shoe box, and key the lock to the random key and to your master. That's ineffective.

I've worked with Titan (which is a higher grade Kwikset) a couple times. I like being able to pull the cores out of locks with a core key. Not totally convenient in residential situations where they don't have the core key, but in your case it could be a major labor saver.

If any of this is restricted stuff in FL, I've got no clue. I'm in NY myself.

Reply to
alt-hvac Moderated

You can probably do it yourself if you want to. If it's cost efficient to or not is another matter. The first thing you should do is buy a good master keying text like Master Keying by the Numbers. You can find it here:

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Or most any other place that sells locksmithing texts.

Consider an IC core system if it will easily replace your existing locks. If you go that route you can pin up cores at your liesure and drop them in place in seconds. If you go this route get a good text on the subject and make sure you understand it inside out before beginning.

Hopefully your existing locks are all uniform. That will make replacing them alot easier. You probably will not need to be a licensed locksmith to purchase what you need, other than perhaps restricted blanks ,and it doesn't really sound like you need a restricted system but if you want a little extra protection one cheater method to make many keys unduplicatable by the average hardware store is to remove a small amount of material down the length of the back i.e. spine of the key, this is easily done with virtually any rotary cutter key machine, or with a hand file in a pinch. If you do this a duplicating machine will typically cut to the wrong depth unless measures are taken to compensate. Such measures although simple are beyond the average hardware store keycutter. Any locksmith could still cut the key but if you stamp do not duplicate you shouldn't have to worry about that very much. One other thing you should consider is that you are going to need a key machine capable of originating keys i.e. not a duplicator. That will be your single largest investment other than perhaps the locks themselves. Consider a punch type machine with the tooling to do whatever lock system you choose. You will probably save money that way. They are also typically very easy to use and portable. If you go the IC core route get a good text on them as well. You will also need some special pinning tools as they are not pinned up in the same manner as traditional cylinder locks. For an IC core system to be effective you also need extra cores on hand so factor in that additional cost as well. Whatever you do don't take any shortcuts in planning and preparation. That will make the difference between a well designed smoothly functioning system which is a joy to administer and a nightmare that will have you pulling out your hair.

Good luck.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

One thing to take into account as you are starting... If you do not buy a fairly expensive key duplicating system you may spend a lot of time trying to get keys that work in all of the 30+ locks. There will be minor variations from lock to lock. A cheap or worn key machine will frequently have sevearl thousandths variation from key to key. The combination will drive you crazy with a large number of keys and locks.

Daniel

Reply to
dbs__usenet

How 'bout this?

I can provide a bitting list. (Saves you the cost of a program or the time of writing it yourself by hand, and the time of learning how to

***properly*** write one)

I can provide you with the original keys. (Saves you the expense of a code machine - not cheap. All you'll need is a small duplicating machine - much, much cheaper)

And since it's for a church, I'll even throw in any free advice you need. (Your dime, of course)

You pin the cylinders (You'll need a pin kit - either a universal kit or a manufacturer specific it), follower(s) and pin tweezers (and shims in case you screw up)

You make your own duplicates (You'll need a cheap duplicator, a number/letter stamp set, and blanks - all of which I can supply if you have trouble obtaining them elsewhere)

Email me at the address below

Bobby

Reply to
Bob DeWeese, CML

Forget the duplicator. Go with good quality locks and a good quality code or punch (probably the way to go) machine. They need something that can originate keys anyway.

Reply to
Putyourspamhere

Key Tinkerer:

First off you can do anything you put your mind to doing... I handle three facilities that use cylinder locks and two that are completely Best I/C...

Your project doesn't sound terribly difficult but first you have to assess your situation...

  1. What maunfacturer are your door locks ???
  2. What type of lock are they ??? Mortise Locks or KIK ???
  3. How are things right at the moment ??? Are the locks all one keyway or are there several different keyways ???

  1. What is the purpose of this re-keying ???

-- Are you doing this to secure the building and stop people who have keys that shouldn't from getting in and out whenever and wherever they please ???

(NOTE: that in most places it is not illegal nor impossible to get a copy of a key stamped "DO NOT DUPLICATE" only a few specific places in the US have actual laws which make this illegal i.e. the City of New York From my experience unless it is a restricted keyway most places locksmiths and hardware stores will make copies because possesion of the key usually suggests that the person having it is authorized to and can also make copies of it)

-- Is this the time to carefully consider what you do, you could invest some dollars into this project now and have less to worry about later on...

  1. Think carefully what your objectives are here... Plan them out...

  1. Then once you have considered your goals and what type of locks you have in place right now you can either decide to re-key the existing locks, replace cylinders, or go with completely new locks (beware, as this could mean expensive ADA complaint hardware in your older building which most likely doesn't have it installed now)...

My recommendations are as follows :

  1. Key all external doors to one key (except the main doorways which you want people to use) and don't give this key out to anyone -- only those who must have access (maintenance workers or the pastor etc.)

  1. Make people use the entry ways which control access to the building... (this makes it easier to secure when closing the building) rather than having to check each and every door now you only need to check two or three etc... Is the building supervised while it is being used ??? If so then only the person supervising it needs a set of keys he or she can open the doors to the rooms needed...

  2. Plan your groups (doors which will have the same key open them carefully) because if you have rooms changing hands often you don't want to have to re-key them every time... One key for each classroom or office is a good idea...

  1. One thing I STRONGLY RECOMMEND is that you have your maintenance room or wherever else you are going to be keeping your locksmithing tools and supplies keyed only to ONE key that ONLY authorized maintenance people have NO ONE ELSE... (I had to re-key my "office" think dark little closet under a service stairwell to a top secret key that only two people have after I found a building security officer had master keys that could open more than I was told they should have access to after I was hired... You will have the code numbers and supplies in this area which could compromise the security of the entire system should someone be able to enter by means of having a key that opens the door only because they help clean up from time to time)

Without knowing more specific things about what you intend to do and what type of installed hardware you are working with I can not offer much more advice... Security is not just a lock or being able to control who has keys to that lock -- it is a state of mind... You may be able to re-key things and keep people out for a short while but if you don't change the way your organization operates you will constantly be re-keying doors and keeping the place secure will be similar to trying to keep water in a spagetti strainer... Only those people that have an essential need to have a key for something should get one... If your building is supervised while it is being used think of having a "duty ring" of keys that gets passed from person to person in charge of the building... (Do all of these people really need their own keys to open everything... Think like a security business officers only have keys to the buildings they are working in while at work then pass these keys off to the next shift -- only supervisors and managers have their own keys issued to them...)

I will say that working with I/C is nice once you get the hang of it -- keys can be made with a keypunch and you will have to invest in some tools and pinning kit supplies...

Or if you want to stay simple Schlage is easy to use as well -- keys can be made with a keypunch and you would need a pinning kit and some plug followers to work with re-keying the locks...

If you want any more advice about this you can ask me privately in an e-mail...

Evan the maintenance man

Reply to
Evan

IMHO Evan is giving good advice - let me discuss some of the points:

I bet that there are some of these doors which nobody needs to use - and that could be a separate key which isn't given to anyone at all.

My experience is that doors need to be checked because they are often opened from inside (to exit) and then not quite closed all the way - or perhaps even intentionally wedged.

Also these "entry ways" - if a common key blank is used, then people will start to get it duplicated - and that will cause you to lose control. So plan on rekeying this small group of doors often (maybe once a year or two.)

Yes! (and I'm suspicious of everybody other than me :-)

Reply to
Henry E Schaffer

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