I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system, but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Ok Philip, it is clear that you have a severely limited knowledge of master keying and how locks in general work as far as mechanical tolerances...
Schlage uses .015" increments for its bitting depths, which means that when you properly master key Schlage locks you would have to use a two-step progression in your system design... This is because the difference between the increment steps is small enough that given the average cylinder tolerances keys off by only one increment in either direction (deeper or shallower) than the key intended to operate the lock can and will with a little bit of "jiggling", and that possibility gets easier as the locks become older and worn with use... Someone else also posted that a master pin with an increment of 1 (which would be .015") could easily find itself jammed in between the plug and the shell, which could interfere with the functioning of the lock...
Any properly designed master key system for Schlage locks would use a two-step progression, meaning that depths for a given pinning chamber would be two apart for different keys operating that lock... Odd/Even (1,3,5,7,9... or 0,2,4,6,8...) While it is possible to make keys only off by one increment in a pinning chamber work, your example was: "a 3 on the master and 2 on the change key", it is done by altering the lock in a way that weakens its overall security... It is most commonly accomplished by pinning the lock to the shallower key bitting (in this case a 2) and then chamfering the pin chamber in the plug (usually done by hand with a drill bit) so that when the key with the deeper bitting is used the top pin will ride up on the now wider pin chamber opening in the plug and allow the lock to turn... I have seen this on countless locks that I have rekeyed... It is a very undesirable condition that makes it much more difficult to rekey that lock into a properly designed system in the future without replacing the cylinder in question... Even more so when this "technique" is used on more than one chamber of the lock...
So the "missing" master pin in size number 1 doesn't exist because the manufacturer knows the design tolerances of the lock, and in order to have locks that are the most reliable and secure that they can possibly be... They are be design not intended to have keys that are only off by one step in the same pinning chamber... This is to prevent key interchange (safety and security) and also to prevent the lock jamming because the very thin size that a number one master pin would have to be could escape the chamber easily and get caught between the plug and the shell (reliability)...
I hope that this helps you... Although I strongly caution you against altering any of your locks in the method described above as it reduces the security of the lock... I recommend that you look at your entire master system: make a chart with all the key bittings listed, and a pattern of some kind should become apparent... This will help you to determine if this condition is widespread or only used in a few locks of your system... If no pattern of any kind develops in your list (see above Odd/Even parity) then you should seriously consider having a new master key system created by another locksmith...
IMO... that is NOT a good situation... change the regular key. make that 2 either a 1 or a 5 trivia-too and this I have been TOLD, cannot VERIFY.. NO 'factory keyed 'Schlage uses a 0 or 1 or a 2 cut, the shallow starts with a 3, UNLESS the lock is master keyed. then they get into the 0 1 2 cuts
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the "professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice, which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart, they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people. So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.
Well from your original post which included: -- "I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system, but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one pin length different.", kind of lead me to _assume_ that you did not have an adequate level of knowledge about locks or master keying, especially when you pose the question "what do I do if I need one", which you then repeated in your second post... I am sorry but your defense of "I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found myself needing one for a reason not of my own making" only further proves that you do not possess enough knowledge to safely master key locks... In this case your idea of "unfortunately small" is something that doesn't exist, as Schlage doesn't make these number one size master pins...
There is more to master keying than dropping pins into a cylinder... It takes a deeper understanding of the brand of locks you are using then you currently possess based upon my "assessment" of your posts...
You should be able to take apart this 'other' lock to see what your locksmith did to 'make it work' and put it back together without any adverse effects... Your reluctance to do this to answer your question to begin with and your earlier statement of "but before I messed up a lock that works" leads me to believe that you really are unsure of your capabilities to do that correctly... I am sorry that you interpret my pointing out your obvious lack of skill as abuse, I did not mean it as that, and you putting it that way should have provoked you into thinking about letting a locksmith deal with your issue... In the event you do open up your other lock to see how it works... The method that I described in my previous post is the most common method that is used , but there are a few others... Including one which you would not be able to see unless you removed your follower tool and examined the top driver pins...
I hope that maybe you have come to realize that just because your lock 'works' that it may not have been put together properly, and having said that your master key system could be prone to problems because of a lack of skill on the part of the person who created it... Your comment of: "Then you might have addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the "professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice, which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do.", truly baffles me... Why would you ask what to do if the master key is a 3 and the change key is a 2 if you did not intend to pin up a lock in that configuration... As to your describing this condition as me thinking it is a 'poor practice', you are wrong on that... It is a dangerous practice and any properly and adequately trained locksmith would not do such a thing to your lock... I do not "think" this, it is a widely known and accepted fact...
I am also truly sorry to see you express your feelings in this area, "changing the keying is a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.", as the security of any building depends on rekeying frequently especially with locks that are not using patented keyways... People in your building are probably much more efficient at coordinating the duplication and distribution of keys that you don't have knowledge of to people who maybe shouldn't have them...
Just because you didn't like the "blunt" nature of my post don't go calling it abuse... The 'real world' can truly abuse you if you are the one who does something to a lock and something later happens that leads anyone to question your skill level because things were stolen or a person was attacked... If you considered my thoughts on this "abuse" I wonder what you would consider being held liable for damages in a lawsuit???
Others have explained why, I'll try to explain what might have happened.
Although it's bad practice for a #1 master pin to be used, I can see it being used, especially when a lock has to be replaced in a master keyed system and the existing keys need to work the lock. He can only work with what was given him... keys that are worn, or badly cut copies made by hardware stores. Those out-of-spec. keys could be off by a 1/2 cut either way.
The wear in the old cylinder allowed those keys to work reasonably well. A NEW cylinder has no wear, so the same pin/chip setup will cause those keys to stick badly, or not work at all.
To compensate, a #1 chip could be necessary for a new lock to work.
I would just keep watch on that lock for problems in the future. (For reasons already mentioned in other posts)
Taking it apart could cause you problems: You need to know how many, and in what order, the pins and chips are located in each chamber of the stack. If you get it wrong, or one pin/chip falls out while taking it apart, nothing will work right. Trust me on this, it's a royal PIA taking apart a MK'd cylinder.
I think Evan just has some bad days sometimes. I thought he was a little out of line, too. Don't know why.
Most of the regulars here treat him quite civilly and he has, on a few occasions, been quite (let's see -what's a good word) arrogant(?) to some of them (myself included). I have my suspicions as to why, but I'll keep them to myself.
Using a #1 master pin on a Schlage would be flat out wrong. If someone else insists that you do it you would be better off just removing that pin stack. But if you do that, it would be with the knowledge that you are severly reducing the security of the lock.
One point I have not seen discussed here that may explain the need for a #1 master is Mason Keying, making a lock work for many many exhisting keys without the need for making and re-distributing new keys. I used to live in a builing that used AR1 keys and each apt had its own key, but the front door was mason keyed to allow each key to work (and yes, there were empty stacks as well - GROAN..). Granted, if it was set up properly, they would have followed the 2-step progression and used #2 masters in the stack.
insists that you do it you would be better off just removing that pin stack.<<<<
If you must use a number 1master chip, dont, and instead of a flat driver, use a # 4 bottom pin- point down, this way it will still turn with the # 2 or # 3 cut. .(due to the radius'd tip) .. better than NOTHING in that chamber
Actually, from the content of your post, and the original questions you asked, it is painfully obvious to anyone who does know about master keying that the only thing you know about it is how to drop pins into a cylinder. There is quite a bit more to it than pinning technique.
With that in mind Evan gave you an in depth explanation of why a number
1 master pin should not be used. He did this in a matter of fact way to ensure that you would understand. He was obviously under the impression that you came here looking for accurate advice and felt it wasn't his job to sugar coat that advice.
Whoever designed your system so that it requires a number 1 master pin in it did not design the system correctly. That number 1 master pin wasn't in your kit because the Schlage Lock Co. has for many years advised against ever using a number 1 master pin.
You asked for advice and now you complain because you got it! You think his response constitutes abuse? You should look at the archives for this group, then you will understand what abuse really is. BBE.
That is really bad advice. Not only will it operate with the #2 and #3 cuts if he does that, but also with a #4, #5 and probably a #6. Failure to mention that will badly mislead anyone into thinking it is an acceptable practice that would only let one other key operate. It just isn't so. BBE
It has been brought to my attention (privately by e-mail) that while my posts in this thread were completely factual and very sound advice that I may have been a bit too blunt...
I apologize for my "tone", but this issue is something that should be taken VERY seriously... The security of your buildings and the safety of its occupants depend on the door locks being properly assembled and keyed...
I guess that I am too serious about this stuff sometimes, but security and safety are not things to be taken lighty... Trust me when I say this, if you thought what I said was abuse, it was a warm breeze compared to some of the fire storms of flaming that pop up here from time to time...
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