master keying schlage locks - why no #1 master pin?

i have to disagree- that it will let that many pass- but YOU are the professional.

AND what i was saying - rather than leave the chamber empty as it was said.

If you've never done anything until you had a full grasp of it, then you show a distinct lack of imagination.

I didn't select the change key. Someone who aledgedly has a full grasp of the subject did. I'm just trying to figure out what he did, why, and if I should be going to a different locksmith in the future.

I like your idea of leaving out the stack though, at least in the short term until I can fix what he did.

Thanks, Philip

Thanks.

I was going to make some guesses myself, but figured if they were true, he doesn't need any more abuse.

But, he's quite willing to give the good with the bad, i.e. he is not ungenerous with his time and adviceand knowledge, so I'm willing to cut him some slack. He is, however, prone to seeing things in black and white, I think, so it's nice to get the input of some of the rest of you to see what the range of opinion might be. If I only listened to him, I might have to go get a gun and shoot the poor guy who set up my locks for me; call it a preemptive strike.

Philip

tolerances...

No, I didn't complain because I got advice. Actually, I thanked him for his advice. I complained because I thought he was rude. I didn't think it was necessary, and I was taught to not tolerate rudeness.

Which of these do you believe in:

1) If someone does something nice for you, they should also do something not nice just to even it out (e.g. you should kick an old lady after you help her across the street) 2) Because there is a continuum of bad things in this world, we should do some of the less bad things to people, just to make them feel better that they aren't having the really bad things done to them (again, you could kick the old lady so she realizes how lucky she was not to be run over)?

Let me see if I can summarize and reclarify (since it's been hard to keep track of all the diverging threads and such)

1) The locksmith chose the wrong keys (in case anyone forgot, I am was not trying to rekey a lock, just match one that a locksmith keyed). To clarify, I brought him the old lock, wanted it rekeyed, and put on a master system at the same time. It was a brand new keying. What does he do, pull a pair of precut keys off the shelf, and repin the lock? And the problem as I understand it is that he didn't check that the keys wouldn't have bittings w/in 1 pin of the master? Should I shoot him, bomb his store, go ask him if he's going senile, or just not use him anymore? (I think Evan would say "all four") It really is supposed to be the best shop around, and they have stuff you can't get anywhere else, so it would be a shame to eliminate them.

2) Now, to key the lock with these poorly chosen keys, he had a few options as far as I can glean from the posts: a - chamfer b - find/make a #1 pin (saw some mentions of "chips"?) c - leave out the stack d - use a bottom pin for a driver to allow some "slop" e - did I miss anything?

OK, I promise, I will go get the damn thing when I can and take it apart and see which it was (should we take bets?), since I don't think at this point that I could go to my grave not knowing the answer.

Thanks again to all for their responses (especially those who didn't feel the need to belittle me), it's been fun, and educational as well.

Apology gladly accepted. And thanks again for your bountiful advice and time.

Philip

Out of your list I would choose option "d" (if you were going to make up another lock to work with teh same keys), as it is the least destructive to the lock and can be completely reversed... Chamfering isn't, so I would never recommend anyone do it... Leaving an empty pinning chamber allows an even greater assortment of keys to function...

You can obtain .015" master pins they are made by Lab Pins and are included as a part of the 5/1000 Universal Pin Kit (and available by the gross)... However using a pin that thin could jam the lock as I and others have explained... This problem would be noticed as a binding/jamming while turning (or attempting to turn) the cylinder...

As far as your locksmith is concerned, the next time he master keys any locks for you just make sure you have him chart out the system in advance on paper... It sounds to me like you figured out how he master keyed your lock, just had a pair of keys and your 'master' and made it work... You don't have to end your business with this locksmith, as he does have other products you need available... Just pay closer attention to any locks you have keyed up there...

Any master key system should have a chart or register to record which bittings are already in use to ensure that they are not repeated anyplace else in the system... Which key bitting combinations you have used already is something any locksmith will want to know before doing any keying work with your locks... That chart is something that you should keep, as you can have many different locksmiths work with your locks over time and make changes to it/add to it as needed...

Evan the Maintenance Man

Not necessarily, the upside down pin as a driver will cause an inordinate amount of wear on the plug.

Thanks much.

Philip

Youre a f****ng idiot. Regular master keyed locks dont have any f****ng security. They can be raked open in about 30 seconds by even a dimwit like you. You might as well not even bother pinning the f****ng things.

In situations like this I use a 1/2 inch countersink drill bit which I have mounted into a chisel handle, to gently put a 'bevel' or slight countersunk edging on the offending pin hole in the plug. Lots of manufactures (Gainsborough Locks spring to mind) countersink the tops of all pin holes in their plugs in their masterkey systems. It just deletes the need for #1 pins, and all the stacks roll over smoothly. It also helps greatly if the cut key is slightly worn or has been cut on a machine that is out a few thou.

Yep, good advise Phillip. Do you or the Locksmith you used have a copy of the original M.K. system, or pinning and code chart ? if not, then all you 'WILL' end up with is what we call 'shoebox' master keying, or 'lucky dip' keying using pre-cut keys and throwing in odd master pins to get the lock to function on the M.K.

"willnevergoaway" snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com forged in message

---snip the forged message to report---

again wasn't me it was (NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.154.36.6)

Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does mean its bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal (flattish bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its own small weight and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough to worry about?

Apparently you know very little about locksmithing, and think that substituting strong language will cover up this lack.

We all agree that MK decreases the security of a lock. Life is all about tradeoffs, and trading some security for some convenience is often reasonable.

But now you tell us that putting one master pin in a lock is equivalent to leaving out all the pins! That confirms my estimate of your lack of knowledge. (Or maybe it is low intelligence?)

it was mentioned by me to use the bottom pin, point down ONLY in lew of using NOTHING in that chamber.

SOMETHING is better than NOTHING.

CANT this just die???

Filling up a Maison keyer cylinder with #1 spacers is asking for trouble. This is especially as such cylinders may be used much more frequently than normal.

Some years ago I stayed at a university hall. One lunchtime I went out by the back gate and wondered if I could return the same way. One glance at the worn keyway indicated the cylinder was Maison keyed, quickly confirmed when my room key fitted it.

Looking at a lock and seeing a worn keyway is not an exclusive indicator of a maison keyed cylinder... In fact it only tells you that the lock is used very frequently... I have seen several high traffic cylinders that show signs of such wear in the keyway which are keyed to only one key... To maintain the highest possible security any worn cylinders should be replaced...

Commonly used locks in college settings (such as entrances that are still keyed, and keys are distributed for them) are often maison keyed to reduce costs... Imagine if you had to produce another key (times however many students occupy the residence hall, then multiply that for each such building on the campus) for such doors...

Evan the Maintenance Man