Corbin-Russwin... Opinions Please...

I masterkeyed a GGMK system in a major building and it gave me hell. I used the companies Blitz in the mantainance room. At first I thought the machine was off one key would work but not the other you get the point. Come to find out the machine was fine. It was the blanks I was using and the pins.

If you take on this job and if it is over two levels make SURE you use original blanks and a standard Corbin-Russwin pin kit and not the lab .005 kit. Haven't tryed it with the .003 kit but because of the specs of the locks, HIGH QUALITY, I'd go with factory pins. I don't see where the other matters but I'd go with the new system.

suggestion.. this comes from limited experience, BUT the maintenance men love it.. outside door is a separate key.. the teacher gets 2 keys, 1 to the door and 1 to their classrooms..

Maintenance, janitors, and certain office people get a master for everything INSIDE.. exception is the nurses office (in my state thats a LAW), and maybe the principal..his office.. if they store money-then that too..

I got a school 6 miles away, that called with a 1956 date of building, lock, was a Corbin Russwin.. they needed a new latch for 2 doors, and that was the FIRST bad lock they had had on the OLD part.. the 4 year old NEW addition could not claim the same distinction on their door locks. and again, Handicapped levers are required when door locks replaced.. ADA law AFAIK

REPINNING ONLY-its not a requirement.

--Shiva--

Evan:

If it's a school, convert'em to I/C cylinders!

Most schools have PED's on exits, so, why constantly R & R the cylys? Just pull a core & replace it.

If you use Arrow flex, you'll have not only I/C control, but, key control. This keyway is restricted.

Newnsie

System 70 vs. Pre-System 70 is usually a function of if you have only one pin kit or the other, or perhaps if you need to tie into an existing system.

System 70 is a little better as you need less pins, and you get a few more changes.

One word of advice is to avoid the temptation to ignore the master ring and to master key to the first shearline. While these are a bitch, do it the way the factory intended. It may be a slow and arduious process, but it will get easier with practice.

Why maintain 2 systems in one facility? Since these are mortise cylinders replace them with the correct cylinders.

From what he faxed me the locksmith used a small

They call this job security.

That is good advice Glen, I guess I am a pureist (or maybe just too much of a perfectionist) but I always use OEM keyblanks when I originate keys...

I have read up on Corbin-Russwin (I sought out the cylinder manual on-line)... They RECOMMEND in CAPITAL LETTERS in MANY places that you only use geniune OEM keyblanks...

Evan the Maintenance Man

I have not been to see what type of locks are in place other than I have been told that most of the interior doors use mortise cylinder locks, with some tubular deadbolts on some of the doors in two of the newer buildings... I will know more this later this afternoon...

I think that retrofitting the entire campus with I/C is very unlikely as it would cost a a lot of money to replace all the cylinders with new cores and housings... That may be a good solution for the exterior entry doors, and I was cosndering making that recommendation as most schools I have seen only seem VERY concerned about re-keying the perimeter when keys are lost or employees turn over...

Evan the Maintenance Man

From what I have read in the Corbin-Russwin cylinder manual, I do not think that these locks are equipped with master ring cylinders... As the locks that have new cylinders installed use regular mortise cylinders and locks comapatable with master ring would require an adapter ring in order to use standard cylinders... But, I totally agree with the statement you make about the master ring cylinders from what I am learning it would defeat the entire purpose of using such technology if you key all of the keys to the plug (lower) shear line...

From what he explained to me I think he made an error in what he asked for and didn't speak up about it... He asked me about this a couple of weeks ago... I told him he probably should have spoken with me BEFORE he had the work done... I will understand things a bit better when I go see him later today and take a look around for myself... But yes I agree that maintaining two different keying systems like that serves no purpose in an evironment that small... I might recommend however that a separate system using I/C be established for exterior entry doors for ease of re-keying... I know that he has the cylinders that were originally installed in each lock in a box in his office, so that won't such a big deal to re-key them and install them back into the locks...

I know this, but as I stated in my previous post, the solution employed in this case was a poorly thought out one... Having to cut dozens of new keys for everyone so each staff member could once again have access to those classrooms defeated the purpose of rekeying because of a lost set of keys and two students suddenly showing up with duplicates...

Evan the Maintenance Man

They have a "conflict of interest" - maybe they are telling the truth that *their* blanks are better for the locks than any other brand - or maybe they just want you to buy from them.

They may or may not be better - but they are probably more expensive!

Personally, the Corbin and Russwin I've worked on has been good quality equipment.

Off the edges of my memory, I think the system 70 is mostly used for sectional keys such as the Corbin 59 and 60 series. Oughta work just fine, though, if you have a code card with the proper pin spacing.

May I suggest that the exterior doors should be on a change that's not on the master key -- anyone who needs night access to the building carries a separate key.

Hey all:

After going out and getting the lay of the land, I can say that things are a mess, but not too bad...

My friend was very cheerful when I told him that things are not too bad... Whatever system they once had has slipped into the cracks... Over the ten years since they last re-keyed the locks the key cabinet where a copy of each key was kept has been raided again and again and now most of the teachers have use of the various master keys for each building as no one has any clue where all the change keys have gone...

I spoke with my friend's boss, who is the school's business manager... A cool guy, one of those older types who looks like he has worked there forever and ever... He was quite helpful with information about many of the locks... He had construction document information on much of the new stuff... For the most part it is all standard mortise stuff... The gymnasium/atheletic building uses tubular deadbolts on many of the doors... The exit devices on the new building are all rim mounted panic bars... The older buildings have an assortment of exit devices of every variety, as they have been replaced over the years as they have broken and many of these doors use the cylinders that came with them in the box and thusly have their very own key for just that door... What I found out is that there are 3 organized systems currently in place... The one on the new SC-1 keyway; one group of locks on the doors of the business office area and kitchen (Russwin D-1 keyway, the original buildings all had this keyway until the campus expansion); and everything else is H-1 keyway... No one can locate any bitting charts or lists as they think/assume that the former head of maintenance got rid of any such paper work when he dumped/disposed of the contents of his filing cabinets when he retired, but the business manager did have a short handwritten list of just the master key bitting combinations...

I don't like the fact that the school shelled out $6,000 ($35 ea. cylinder, $15 ea for keying and $25 ea installed flat-rate) parts and labor for the new set of mortise cylinders (which look like they are some aftermarket brand) they had put in when the students were found in possession of keys a few months back... I was shown the invoice, it was itemized and they did get what they paid for... However I feel that what they asked for and got didn't really suit their needs... The locksmith in my opinion should have reused the exisiting cylinders, which are in excellent condition, but he did what he did and I see nothing wrong with that other than he didn't really ask too many questions other than how many do you need and when do you need them by according to my friend...

I suggested a few things to both my friend and his boss as they showed me around on a brief tour of the campus... The business manager was interested in what I had to say, and is looking forward to meeting with me next month after I have some time to research a few more things and get some prices from the distributor I use through work... They begin next year's budget ('04-'05) in July and told me that they could spend another $5,000 or so from the Maintenance Budget (a bit more if need be but that would have to involve the headmaster in the decision process)... I think I might end up doing this project, as my friend is a cool guy and I think the school has already been bled a bit on lock work, but only on the condition that they hire me as a temporary employee of the school, as I am not in this business professionally and I have no desire to seek out liability insurance to cover myself to do this work as an independant contractor... Besides 10-99 tax forms are not something I want to deal with come tax time next spring...

I am thinking along the lines of having the school purchase an HPC 1200 code cutting machine, a supply of OEM key blanks, an OEM pinning kit, and the materials I will need to convert all the exterior entry doors to SFIC (which can be swapped out whenever the need arises with a wide variety of compatable products at various levels of expense)... I think that they will like this as it will allow them to create any keys they need at the school, and have the capacity to rekey locks in-house should they have the need to do it again... As to which bitting system I will use, I think that I will choose the System 70 option... I have plenty of time to read up on and figure out the planning of a single-step progression master system, and it allows for more possible key combinations... I am going to plan out a system and explain the benefits of using it with a TMK that opens all cylinders with different master groups for each building, and also the benefits of using that same system WITHOUT a TMK (which I kind of prefer, as people will not seek out gaining possession of such a 'desireable key')...

Thanks to all who have offered advice...

Evan the Maintenance Man

Corbin Russwin make large format removable core cylinders. With these you can incorporate the removable core with the rest of the school keying. Of course with mortise cylinders it is no real time saving over a standard mortise cylinder.

Perhaps a word of explanation is in order here. Often Government agencies will generate a specification and you are asked to bid on the specification. Should you attempt to deviate from the specification you are in for a world of grief, in that you have to explain it to the maintenance guy, then to the facilities manager, then they need to bring it up to the committee at the next meeting, it gets read into the minutes and put off til next month for consideration... In the meantime your attempt to save the customer a few bucks has allowed your competitor to submit a bid that had no clauses or changes and is easier for the committe to act on. They get hired, you don't.

You are asking for trouble here. you leave a code machine and keyblanks on the campus and sooner or later everyone will have master keys.

You are also thinking sideways about having them hire you as a temporary employee. They would have a lot of costs involved with this plan you don't consider like insurance etc. you would be better off to hire on at a locksmith who can back you up with expertise and stand ready to service the system after the job is done.

SFIC is not the best choice for a school. Think about removing stuff from the locks and this will be obvious.

As to which bitting system I will use, I think that I will

Schools need master keys. Every day the janitor needs to clean. the last thing he needs to do is haul around 50 keys just to do his job.

Sub masters are more trouble than they are worth in a school. Occasionally a teacher might have the need to enter several classrooms but it is better just to issue those teachers several keys or key several classrooms alike.

You can buy nickel silver aftermarket blanks, but the issue is wear over time. In your example of a school, classroom teachers will use a key perhaps 5 to 7 times a day 200 days a year.

In 10 years that's about 12,000 cycles. Brass will survive this duty cycle just fine. Master keys used by the janitors however are another story. They probably get used ten times more than the teachers keys so they would benefit from a more wear resistant key.

there IMO, is a unnamed key company on the east coast, that anymore I CRINGE on their keys.. ESPECIALLY the nickel silver blanks..

their safe deposit keys are fine, but I see too much tiny variation in their others..

Jet- for some applications I have NO problems with,, and I get through my supplier some unbranded boxes of 250 blanks.. and its funny to me, their tolerance in a way is BETTER than the east coast company.. I can pick 2 out of the box, take digital calipers to them, and they ARE the same.. which helps immensely..

--Shiva--

You are not a locksmith. You have no business doing this. Only locksmiths should do this. Call a bloody locksmith.

And you are nothing but a person who likes to piss all over everyone equally... Go troll somewhere else you asshole...

I am not asking for anyone here to show me any "secret handshakes", and your reference to it in another thread only serves to futher prove you are nothing more than a troll...

Also, If I have "no business" doing such things, then why it is my job at work to do them ???

Just curious... Is there licensing of locksmiths in your state? Doing locksmith work for an employer on the employer's property may not be subject to licensure, but doing this project may be.

There is no licensure of locksmiths in Massachusetts...

And I did think of someone bringing that up, so my proposal pitch for this when I meet with them again will be to hire me on as a temporary employee, then I may do whatever work they delegate to me as their agent...

Since there will be no work here which requires any permits of any kind I do not need a contractor's license and as I made mention of Massachusetts does not regulate the profession of locksmithing in any way, it is treated as a normal general busness operation as far as the law is concerned...

Which makes me even more curious... What are the laws concerning "normal general busness operation" in Massachusetts? If they do hire you as a "temporary employee" I assume this would relieve you of all liability. But what about the school? Is a "temporary employee" covered under workman's comp, their liability insurance, etc.? As a small business owner, even I would would balk at hiring a "temporary employee".