Yale University keyways

My guess would be that they changed it so a Best keyway that is controlled distribution like most other colleges so they can have control over key duplication...

You want to get more keys made go and ask for them through the proper channels if you have a justifiable need for them your request will be granted, if you don't at least the college people will be aware that you are desiring access to things you shouldn't be getting into...

Yale University

changed it to a

not knowing anything about you. why are you asking ?

a couple of things to think about for now. "restricted" and "key control"

g-day

The campus locksmiths are no doubt having a good laugh over this and the Proctor is no doubt looking up your name.

Considering that the only people likely to know are those who admin or service the lock system there you aren't likely to get a lot of help figuring out the probably restricted system they put in place, at considerable cost, to stop you in the first place.

X-no-archive: yes

As a matter of security without knowing you (the original poster) fairly well even if I did know, I likely wouldn't tell [I don't, BTW, so its a moot point]

I have to disagree with the "Best" comment below -- although I haven't looked at many college campuses (roughly a dozen or so, mostly in California but a few in Michigan) -- and not one used a [known] Best keyway... I've seen plenty of Schlage, one or two Medeco, four or so Corbin, Russwin or Corbin-Russwin [including a keyway matching the lock on my shed], and the rest have been Yale (with one using Yale LFICs -- A key that is quite long... Looks like about 7 pins, Is that right?)...

(Noting lock hardware is just one of those things I do along with figuring out where the nearest exit is almost-subconciously... and when I get bored all bets are off)

FWIW - I've seen Best keyways (or actually any Best hardware at all) in exactly two places, with a possible third - a small airport in the northeast [can't remember exactly where], a high school in southern California, and I could have sworn I saw them on a few doors at LAX, but the next time I went through I couldn't find 'em

My university (NCSU) uses Best brand locks for most doors and many padlocks. Even the key blanks used are Best brand. It's a large university and uses several key sections (e.g. E, H and others). These locks are usually 7 pin and a fair amount of master keying is done. Between the number of pins and the precise production of the locks, there doesn't seem to be much of a security downside from the master keying.

Best is alot more common in most areas than your observations would tend to indicate.

"they misplaced the building master... took a FRANTIC call to Best, for ALL new locks... and about 3-4 hours to replace EVERY core in the building..."

Think of how many hours it would have taken to re-key that building if used mortice cylinders instead of I/C...

I don't know why your friend made any FRANTIC calls to Best at all... The college should have been able to recombinate the affected cores to a new master using the existing key changes already issued to the students...

Evan the maintenance man

"I have to disagree with the "Best" comment below -- although I haven't looked at many college campuses (roughly a dozen or so, mostly in California but a few in Michigan) -- and not one used a [known] Best keyway... I've seen plenty of Schlage, one or two Medeco, four or so Corbin, Russwin or Corbin-Russwin [including a keyway matching the lock on my shed], and the rest have been Yale (with one using Yale LFICs -- A key that is quite long... Looks like about 7 pins, Is that right?)...

(Noting lock hardware is just one of those things I do along with figuring out where the nearest exit is almost-subconciously... and when I get bored all bets are off)"

Well your last comment has some very important info in it I only wish that more people are aware of their surroundings (making note of exit locations etc...) as you seem to be...

I have not been to the buildings and locations that you have been so I don't know what you have seen in your area... Around here in Boston and Providence even Worcester most of the buildings use I/C and Best compatable SFIC cores at that... Best has many commerical keyways that are over used, but they also have restricted ones that they control at the factory... Several other manufacturers have produced security keyway cores that work in Best I/C products: Kaba (Peaks cores), Keymark (Medeco), Schlage (Everest)... So the applications are much more flexible as far as changing security needs...

Systems that use LFIC (manufacturer specific) are less flexible and would require more dollars be invested in order to make a large upgrade in security unless you wish to remain within the same lock manufacturer family...

Evan the maintenance man

over a couple of days time... in the MEANTIME, there is a problem with both room AND building security... Best air freighted the required # of cylinders out on the next available plane... --Shiva--

FYI, Best uses Total Position Progression to generate their keying systems and the above isn't possible with that technique. In fact it isn't possible with any scientific technique in use today for standard pin tumbler cylinders. BBE.

If it is a genuine Best blank look for a small capital letter stamped in the blank by itself, not part of any coding stamped as part of the individual key number. Often where the blade of the key meets the bow.

See also:

" FYI, Best uses Total Position Progression to generate their keying systems and the above isn't possible with that technique. In fact it isn't possible with any scientific technique in use today for standard pin tumbler cylinders. BBE."

I personally think that you are wrong here...

I am familiar with the standard Best progression format. TMK has its cuts and change keys have their cuts, and sub-masters are related to their series of change keys by sharing several identical cuts.

Only the TMK (building master) was lost... In the scenario described above in Shiva's first reply... You have to think outside the box... If only the master key was compromised why do you want to totally re-key every lock in such a large building that would mean cutting and issuing several hundred new keys to everyone who occupies the facility. You only need to change the master pins in the however many pinning chambers in each core of the system, that have to do with the master hierarchies of the system, in the affected cores to different ones while allowing the same change keys and often the same floor master keys to still operate. I agree that it would not totally secure the system - meaning that some of the master cuts would still be known but the lost key on its own wouldn't work anymore. College dorm buildings are re-keyed often usually at the end of a school year. So by making the missing key inoperative the system could stand as is after the lost TMK is made inoperative until the periodic re-keying occurs.

"over a couple of days time... in the MEANTIME, there is a problem with both room AND building security... Best air freighted the required # of cylinders out on the next available plane...

--Shiva-"

Surely I agree that Best could do that - at a very large expense. Well we both know that building security is only ensured with keyed locks when you can control access to the supplies needed to originate keys - meaning the keyblanks. The poster who started this thread must know something of locks to be interested in identifying the keyway in use.

So what you are implying with your statements above total insecurity is ok for however many hours or days (when was this lost key reported) until new cores and keys arrive air-freighted from Best rather than to have the school personnel who deal with locks and security begin to immediately re-keying affected doors on a priority basis and working long hours until the goal of making that lost key inoperative is accomplished. Overtime for a day or two or even three is much much less money than the expense of an emergency re-key job when you are talking about shipping charges included. Besides you are opening up a can of worms anyway by having all the cores replaced with new ones - how are you going to issue new keys to all of the affected people in those three or four hours it takes you to re-core the locks with the replacements ordered from Best.

Evan the maintenance man.

Yes that will work with the standard commerically available keyways from Best... However the restricted distribution and security keyways have no such markings on them anywhere on the keyblank..

Evan the maintenance man

keyblank in question comes from Best...one of the restricted ones He has blanks on hand to duplicate as needed but not enough to repin something on that size...

thats why it took the time the NEXT day, catching the students and giving them the new key..

consider the time to repin a cylinder, now multiply by how many were in the building. VS, having bagged cylinders in hand, walk up- pull, replace, next door... time wise, it saved a LOT of time, security wise-again, how long would it take to generate a new top master, then rechange if needed all the SUB masters, reassemble each cylinder, keeping track of where THAT cylinder goes in the system( this is room 3 of the third floor, student door, etc... there was NO hesitation on the schools part to 'pay the money' and get it done ASAP. WHICH in this case, meant calling Best, and saying, we lost a master to building such and such, and need to replace the locks...please send.

--Shiva--

What you are saying is that you don't consider changing the TMK in such a system by dumping two or three chambers (the ones which relate to the master hierarchies) in each core and then re-mastering them to a new TMK (yes using several of the old cuts) but a new key nonetheless... Remember you only spoke of the TMK being lost not any other MK in the system hierarchy... I think that going through the time to dump and re-pin some chambers of each core will allow the locksmith and other people "in the know" about what happened to take some time and consider the policies of handing out TMK's to anyone who gets a Dean's (or whoever's) approval... TMK's in a system such as this are for lifesafety issues... When the convienence factor comes in and the TMK is given out because its really really neat to be able to open so many doors with one key just because -- that is why key systems become insecure... Only people who should have access to any TMK's are: a duty ring for campus police, fire department officials, campus locksmiths, and a duty ring for maintenance personnel... You reap what you sow -- however many TMK's you pass out well that is how many chances you take to loose them... And if you are going to go through the whole routine of ordering a rush (PANIC) replacement set of cores for an entire building then whoever is in charge of handing out keys needs to consider a seriuos change in policy... Because someone no doubt did get a serious yelling at over the expense of that situation...

Shiva wrote in a message:

"keyblank in question comes from Best...one of the restricted ones He has blanks on hand to duplicate as needed but not enough to repin something on that size..."

Ok -- I can understand that... But how many TMK's are there to cut news ones to replace for the one being inactivated ??? That is the ONLY key that was lost and hence the only key that needs to be replaced...

"-- consider the time to repin a cylinder, now multiply by how many were in the building

-- how long would it take to generate a new top master

-- there was NO hesitation on the schools part to 'pay the money' and get it done ASAP"

Everything takes time... But when you are only dumping x# of chambers in a core and re-pinning them to a new master and the existing change key -- especially repeating that process over and over with only small variations doesn't sound like it would take as many eons as you make it out to...

How long would it take someone to look at a bitting chart and see which cuts in the system's master hierarchy are not in use... I agree if the system is maxed out as far as the number of possible change keys meaning every possible key bitting is in use then yes your order from Best would be something worth doing...

I have never worked in a college before but I think there is a certain logic to assuming one TMK for each one building... So doesn't that mean an individual keying system for each building ?? I mean unless someone has a system in which a key exists that will open every core that this "super key" will fit into... (Isn't that kind of dangerous if such a key was lost???)

What will have to suffer because fo this loose philosophy of key control for the expense of tens of thousands of dollars for a change out like this ??? Surely there is not an item in the budget of a college for "emergency core replacement from Best" having such a thing would definitely mean that the wrong approach to key control and system planning are in place... Everything is about controlling costs these days -- consider for so many hours of an employees time (or several) and some pins and a few keyblanks -- there is a much more cost effective way to handle a scenario like the one in question...

Evan the maintenance man

the lost key had the person in charges approval.. they JUST LOST their keys...

whats the time to do one cylinder? 20 minutes? PLUS, figuring the pinning pattern for 2-3 hundred cylinders... PLUS recutting, the needed keys... that would be including the time to get/replace TO A POINT, as well... 1 person- 8 hour day, thats 24 PER person... 4 'smiths could do a hundred- so you got 3 days of UNKNOWN who has the key... (assuming a few things for discussion here)

on a RESTRICTED key way- its not time effective... --Shiva--

you need to : see the system in place-6 or 7 cut keys...then do a LOT of figuring...

the TOP master was lost... it fit every lock- repin all the locks.... how long, see other post... how long does it take you to repin a Best? I ADMIT me PERSONALLY I am VERY slow, figuring out the needed cuts, etc, BECAUSE I do not do one but once every year or so... they are not common in MY particular area...

how much is a life worth? what if in the meantime, some one had 'gotten in' a students room and 'attacked her'??? the college is THEN 'up the creek'.

this was the 'super key' for THIS building...

--Shiva--

You wrote: "-- whats the time to do one cylinder? 20 minutes? PLUS, figuring the pinning pattern for 2-3 hundred cylinders... PLUS recutting, the needed keys..." "you need to : see the system in place-6 or 7 cut keys...then do a LOT of figuring..."

The whole point was that if you dump only those chambers that relate to the system hierarchy and re-pin them changing only THE MASTER key while allowing all of the change keys to continue to function... It would be a lot cheaper than ordering a whole new system... There isn't really all that much figuring here... Simply alter the hierarchy of the system to a new TMK... You don't need to change all seven pin chambers to make that key no longer work... And seeing as how it is a CONFIRMED restricted keyway system from your comments you would only really need to change the TMK by one increment step in order to render it useless...

If it takes you 20 minutes to do the A2 shearline math and pin and cap a core I agree that perhaps you shouldn't attempt to do something like I have described... It takes me about 5 minutes to combinate a core (thats from scratch) and faster than that if i am only dumping one or two chambers (which is why I use Best products because each chamber has its own cap rather than Falcon type cores which use a metal strip to cover them all)...

As far as "cutting" new keys -- what a few people who have the TMK will need to get the new one... How long does it take you to punch out a Best key on a keypunch -- or cut one on a Blitz like I have to do for some of the Kaba Peaks cores I deal with ???

" -- the lost key had the person in charges approval.. they JUST LOST their keys..."

Well that being the case then what other buildings did this person have the keys to and why were they not also re-keyed as well ??? It is unlikely that someone who works anywhere would carry only one key around by itself and -- if they did -- would make it much more likely to loose it...

"-- on a RESTRICTED key way- its not time effective..."

Thats where you are wrong the restricted keyway adds $$$$ to the costs involved at all levels...

And my whole point was that IT IS possible to re-master an I/C that is not maxed out on key bitting usage... You still have not answered my question as to 1 day or 1 and a half days of UNKNOWN (while you await the arrival of your Best factory order) who has a key being any better than having someone begin at once to re-master the affected locks...

"-- this was the 'super key' for THIS building..."

Well it only takes changing one or two pinning chambers on each core to make it (the TMK) not work anymore but you can still use the existing change keys without having to design a new system from scratch... That is why you can use two-step progression and have keys cut all the same but only be different by 2 increments in one position and still not have any key interchange with the change keys...

"-- how much is a life worth? what if in the meantime, some one had 'gotten in' a students room and 'attacked her'??? the college is THEN 'up the creek'."

Ok... It is clear that you have never been to a college dorm recently... I have to sign in and show ID to even get into the building to visit a friend or drop something off for him... My guess is that while a key such as a TMK is lost that security would more than likely tighten even more and the college might even have a security officer or police patrolman wandering the hallways in that building until the situation is resolved...

Evan the maintenance man