Yale University keyways

I wonder if an upscale university like Yale has machine shop classes with milling machines.

Reply to
Jay Hennigan
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in my neck of the woods, you go to the vo tech school, colleges dont teach shop class stuff at all.

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

a DAY? try HOURS... the locks were at the airport by 10pm...... and this from factory to middle of the US... cost? no ideas... I could be entirely wrong, but all new locks, plus all new keys, was about $16 grand. something in my memory makes me want to say that was the cost of the new cores...

you want to recombinate 2-3 hundred cores, go for it.

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

But most colleges have mill shops... Maintenance dept and/or Science/Engineering Building... Even MIT has a mill shop that students have access to...

Reply to
Aegis

In New York, I've seen Best hardware on Monroe Community College (Rochester NY area), and also on the college at Oneonta. Also the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uses Best cylinders very extensively on their chapels, and historic sites. It's kinda funny to be visiting a historic site, and there is a 1800's period reconstruction log home with a Best core lock on the front door. I havn't been in the Rochester airport since 1985 or so, but I remember seeing Best cores there, too. And Pizza Hut Incorporated uses cores on their restaurants. And.....

Reply to
alt-hvac Moderated

One of the state colleges in NY, about ten years ago. One of the security guards lost a master ring and they never found it. But stuff started disappearing out of the rooms at an incredible rate after that.

Reply to
alt-hvac Moderated

Seems like they coulda knocked out one pinstack, and changed the master bitting. When my church congregation had some keys out (and stuff disappearing) a couple years ago, they changed the pinning in the cores. Changed one stack, which changed the congregation level keys. IIRC, they went from a 9 to a 1 in that stack, and left the custodian master keys unaffected. They didn't change the core on the padlock on the custodian cabinet, so I carried the old MK in my suit jacket pocket for awhile, in case I needed a screw driver or a can of paint (smile).

Reply to
alt-hvac Moderated

I think we have the contrast between "doing it by the book" and "making it work". By the book is ordering a completely new set of cores & keys from Best. They come new, with the knowledge that a reputable company did it - and it's over. Then you also have 300 old cores which can be used in repairs over the next years.

Making it work - would take a while (an hour?) to see if there was one pin stack which could be recombinated (I'd look to change the master pin by *two* levels) - but 2 stacks would probably be ok. Then get the whole crew working and start recombinating. How long does it take to recombinate one pin stack in a core? (Remember that there is *no* calculation or thinking at that point - it is swapping out one or two pins in that stack - and that is done over and over an over.) Guess: 5 minutes per core including the few seconds it takes to remove and replace. This is done in the hallway in front of the door. So that's perhaps 10 doors/hour. Or 300 cores = 30 hours (only 20 hours if it is only 200 cores.) That's one hard day for a crew of 3 people - with a bit of overtime.

Savings? Perhaps $15,000 minus the value of having 300 extra cores.

Downside - here's the worry of the college administrators. They don't have the reassurance that a reputable company did it all. Who are they going to point a finger at if something goes wrong (e.g. a phantom key) or if someone *claims* that something went wrong. Perhaps they viewed the extra cost as "insurance"?

Reply to
Henry E Schaffer

IMO, institutional smithing is another breed of cat than 'public' work... you have A boss, and right or wrong, THEY are the boss-they sign the paycheck... to a POINT, unless you can really convince security and the higher ups, they got policies in place...

if A kid loses a door key to their room... thats one thing... even if you lost a key to a floor, and had to do 50 doors during the summer, thats perhaps another... but to sit down and 'guarantee' that you will not have any mistakes- with certain life safety issues in mind' thats another... they chose in this case SAFE...replace em all.

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

I was blown away by the number of levels of mastering the university I'm at [has/had] -- and everything except the keyed override [is/was] on the GGGMK:

So Far, plus whatever bitting for the key that lets you pull the core (for some reason I can't remember the term...): Great Great Grand Master opens all Locks; Great Grand Master - opens all locks except data clostes and cash handling; "Type" Master (Classroom/Office) - opens all locks of that type Building Master - all locks in building Floor Master - all locks on floor ... and I'm sure I've forgetting at least two levels

... and literally dozens of people [were/are] issued GGMKs

[The campus is being completely rekeyed for the first time since and I'm not sure what the master status will be, I do know that the GGGMK, GGMK and type masters will be tightly controlled]

This, though, is what makes access control systems so awesome. We use CardAccess from Continental Instruments and every exterior door (with a few exceptions for individual rooms) is on the system with electrified hardware, as are "sensitive"/"high value" areas, and a growing percentage of doors inside a building that are normally locked but large numbers of people need keys for (ie. chem labs, etc.) -- I have a card that opens nearly every door on campus -- because of the control and audit trail available there's not the concern as with a physical key [If I loose the card or seperate from the university, the card can be killed in an instant by either University Police or the Lock Shop]... not many faculty or staff have cards (and by extension, after-hours access to the building(s))

- The buildings (and computer labs) lock and unlock themselves automagically at pre determined times.

- A very nice audit trail if things go missing

- Simplicity: One card opens as many (or as few) doors as it needs to (vs. my 9 physical keys)

- And (with Sargent electrified hardware, at least) a really cool sound and visual effect when the crash bar sucks itself in when a door unlocks.

Our locksmith has said that he would love to put every single door on CardAccess, but there's (ovbiously) a cost issue... What's the average $/door these days? Several years ago, I had heard $5k but (I hope) things have changed

Reply to
Interested

Our running average is $1k to $1.5k per door right now... Depending on the quality of the system they want.

Reply to
Aegis

So Far, plus whatever bitting for the key that lets you pull the core (for some reason I can't remember the term...): Great Great Grand Master opens all Locks; Great Grand Master - opens all locks except data clostes and cash handling; "Type" Master (Classroom/Office) - opens all locks of that type Building Master - all locks in building Floor Master - all locks on floor .. and I'm sure I've forgetting at least two levels

... and literally dozens of people [were/are] issued GGMKs"

This is a common type situation with keyed locks... One lost key could screw over security all over the campus with a GGGMK "super key" like this... It also severly limits the expansion and security of a keying system... Is there really a person on a college campus that needs to be able to open all (or almost all) doors on the entire campus with a single key ??? NO !!! There isn't, Security and Maintenance personnel usually have so many keys on their key rings you can hear them coming towards you from a great distance away...

Electronic Access Control is great, missing credentials can be de-activated almost instantly... Lost keys... (Everyone holds their breath until $100,000's of thousands of dollars are spent ordering new cores from Best in the event a GGGMK "super key" goes missing) College Administrators should not have keys to open everything in the college -- at least not if they have a full time police force on duty... Three departments that should have a GGGMK (if it exists) or access to master keys are: Public Safety (or the ampus police), the college Locksmith(s), and Maintenance (some people also call these guys facilities)... Access to those keys at a central office -- not issuing a set to every employee... Someone is going to be much more careful with a set of keys that they sign out understanding that they will be finacially liable for replacing all locks those key or keys access if they are lost...

I can clearly see that three things are wrong --

ONE: Keying systems are designed incorrectly (IMHO - only one TMK per building is neccesary... Key rooms and doors for maintenance or facilities rooms to a separate master system... Then if for some reason a set of maintenance keys gets lost they will only open doors to rooms that don't effect anyones personal safety directly... Same again with exterior building doors, key them up to a master system of their own -- custodians and security personnel (or anyone else that needs to be able to get INTO many buildings but NOT INTO every room in them) can be issued keys to open only what they need to open, the outside of the building... Installing a key safe (either a lockbox "Knox rapid entry company comes to mind here", or a small closet that is opened by electronic access control) in the lobby near the fire panel to contain a building master for emergencies sounds much better than having these keys walking around 24/7... This is what the fire department does in many areas that I have seen -- if it works for them it can work for a private organization as well...

TWO: People who don't really need TOP LEVEL access to anything (and who usually have no idea about how locks work inside) insist on having a key that opens most of the campus under their rule... I mean if an off hours visit to a given classroom or area is required isn't opening a door or doors something on-duty maintenance or public safety personnel can do ??? To those people I say: "If carrying around one key for each building you want to have access too is something that you don't want to do, then you don't need to be able to open every door in them then..."

THREE: Keys are given to those who don't have a need for them (to have THEIR own personal copy of anyway), consider starting a "duty-ring" system with key-rings that can not be broken apart "thinks of rings made by Key-Cops and marketed towards Casinos and vending companies" and some type of chain-of-custody documentation for loaning out master keys... Properly documenting who last had a set of lost keys will either end that person from having access to keys such keys again, or make them liable to pay the replacement costs to resecure the effected locks from their paycheck...

I know it sound crazy, but safety with keyed locks can not be assured any other way... And having six different operating keys for an interchangable core is just sick -- it makes it for a much less secure lock than a system that has a TMK and a change key only... With a lock that is keyed up to six different operating keys I would not need a lost master, give me a minute or two (sometimes three), a lock pick and a tension wrench... How often are locks to rooms where a rape or some other serious crime or theft occurs taken apart by a forensic locksmith to check for damage or marks left behind by a picking attempt ??? Can anyone seriously tell me that such a thing is done as standard procedure in a criminal investigation ???

Evan tha maintenance man

Reply to
Evan

Anyone who knows how to access and use such equipment never would ask here for assistance :-)

regards - Ralph

Reply to
Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS

and you will find that VERY few people actually do, anymore. (know how to use the equipment)

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

I would have thought so too, until I installed safety interlocks on the doors to 2 laser labs at a major university here. The idea was that when the laser was on, a light next to the door turned on. Then, if the door was opened while the laser was activated, a flap was energized that effectively blocked the laser (all but turned it off) unless a button was pushed within

5 seconds of entering. This was a safety issue as a high energy laser can basically blow out your retina if you walk into that room while the laser is on and don't have your safety goggles on.

Anyway, noone actually sells this little metal flap that blocks the laser, so one had to be fabbed. The professor just told me to go with one of his students down to the machine shop and I watched and helped as the student fabbed this little flap out of metal, attached it to a hinge, and then rigged up a little electomagnet to hold it open as long as voltage was applied.

In other words, they may not 'teach' millwork, but they have the tools available for their experiments. A laser lab, mechanical engineering lab, etc would HAVE to have access to these kinds of facilities or they'd be 100% book-bound with NO practical experience upon graduation.

Reply to
Aegis

ok, thats YOUR area of the world... here, you want to work with a laser, travel a LONG ways...

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

Control key is Best's term.

I don't know about forensic locksmiths, but I can tell you that curious students at a certain university many years ago (yes, the statute of limitations has expired) used to take apart locks. Shortly after taking apart a few, some of these students would have ONE extra key on their keyring, hand-made, rather thin. They would also have a small plexiglass rod on their keyring with two holes drilled in the end. I would expect that this type of thing still goes on.

No reports of theft, but a lot of harmless exploration, and the occasional resident assistant (dorm daddy) who was a jerk would find that he could no longer get into his room, but I bet his key fit the never-locked ladies' room in a building across campus just fine.

Of course I wouldn't know any of these people personally, or have any idea what the plexiglass rod was used for.

Reply to
Jay Hennigan

My personal experience is that the 7 stack Bests are still very hard to pick even with all those master pins. I'm convinced that Best does a great job of precision machining.

I believe that it is often done when there is a reason to wonder about the means of entry to the room/premises. In many cases there is visible forcible entry, and in the frequent cases of date/acquantaince rape the two people were already in the room.

Hmm - just about 1/2" in diameter, perhaps?

This resembles the original "hacker" ethic at MIT. A lot of this type of exploration was/is not only harmless but beneficial, as there is a lot to learn.

Poetic justice. :-)

Of course not!

Reply to
Henry E Schaffer

When I was in school (1983) I took apart the cyl on my dorm room, and made a key to whatever wasn't my change key. Had a lot of fun with that.

I designed a doodad with a ball point pen sleeve and some glue that did the same thing as the plexi rod. Even got my tip published in one of the trade magazines way back when.

Reply to
alt-hvac Moderated

My resident assistant came back from the shower one night to find his dorm room door locked. He picked up the fire extinguisher from down the hall and slammed the door a couple times. Door likely still has dents in it. He went (still in bath robe) and found the on duty RA, and got into his room. Found his keys right where he left them. He never did figure out how that happened.

Reply to
alt-hvac Moderated

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