Yale University keyways

Then you would be mistaken. As it happens I design keying systems for a living and it is never as simple as your proposal. BBE.

No disrespect intended here, but unless the master system is maxed out on key changes you can always remaster it -- not a complete remastering, but you can deactivate a lost master key...

lets make an example here-- ok

say i have a best core keyed to the following keys:

[5 - 5 - 3] - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 TMK "A" [3 - 9 - 5] - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 Change key AA-1

lets say its a fancy system and you have a submaster --

[3 - 9 - 5] - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 (Submaster) "AA"

I could de-activate the lost TMK by dumping the first two stacks currently pinned to a master depth of 5 and the third that is pinned to a 3 to any other combination of numbers that is not already in use in the master hierarchy of the system... You are correct in that you can not change the bitting array completely, but unless you have every bitting combination in use you can alter your heirarchy [numbers in brackets] to another depth not in use and save designing a new system...

It is possible to do this in a system that is not out of bittings in the master heirarchy -- and yes Best uses heirarchies in all of its factory produced master systems -- three to four of the pin stacks on a seven pin core depending on how many change keys are required under each master or submaster...

Evan the maintenance man

bye, Evan.... Billy FORGOT more than you will EVER know about key systems...

(plonk)

--Shiva--

(plonk)

--Shiva--

-----------------------------------

It is nice to know that "experts" feel that they have nothing to learn... I don't proclaim to know everything about locks, BUT I have proven my point on this... People here said what i described was something IMPOSSIBLE to do -- it isn't...

I can tell that you are one of those people that won't give up on something even though you have yet to offer any proof to back up your claims... So I give up: YOU ARE RIGHT AND LITTLE ME THE MAINTENANCE MAN IS WRONG... OK... FEEL ALL BETTER NOW ---SHIVA--- ??? Maybe Billy does too now that both of your egos have been massaged a little (used a kind word there instead of the word I had in mind)...

So spend all of your clients money now while you still have the chance to because when people like me come along in a few years time willing to do things at a lesser cost watch out... Your $15,000 "insurance-type" overreactions to such events as a lost master key will not look as attractive as the ideas offered up by others...

As far as my knowledge of keying systems is concerned, how do you even dare to assume what I may or may not know about them, just because I am not a certified registered locksmith with the ALOA doesn't mean I don't know anything at all... You making such a blanket public statements about the knowledge and experience of someone you have never met only allows everyone here read about your arrogance... Also your quick responses to attack an "uncoventional idea" only publicly prove how narrow-minded a person you are...

Good day to you Shiva...

Evan the maintenance man

security is # 1 AS IS SAFETY...

you want to REVERSE engineer 300 locks? then you are VASTLY bored at your job...and have FAR TOO MUCH FREE TIME...

whats the pinning chart? you dont have it...but you are 'going to drop 1 chamber and fix 300 locks? right, have fun...

20 minutes per, lets say, times 300 locks 6,000 minutes...100 HOURS... thats 4 DAYS around the clock... or 4 guys ONE 24 hour day...no breaks, no sleep, no food...

you get paid $15 an hour, JUST FOR DISCUSSION ONLY , that means that you just took $1500 in order to 'save another 14k, great...

1 KID gets attacked.... while you are 'spending the 100 hours' time, and they 14k you 'saved' JUST WENT BYE BYE... in the ensuing LAWSUIT...

your 14k just became a half MILLION payout...

enjoy your 'savings'- and BTW, guess who becomes the fall guy? uuups...

the locksmith at the campus- sleeps QUITE well, KNOWING they have done EVERYTHING to keep the kids AS SAFE as possible...

--Shiva--

<snipped>

And you can still allocate a control key OK?

It would be dangerous to apply this method if you did not have access to the bittings of ALL the sub masters in use, otherwise you could land the new TMK bitting on top of the SMK you were unaware of. Even then unless the person doing the work is fully conversant with masterkeying, he could botch it up resulting in 'ghost' keys.

For factory set up suites, an irregular change to a TMK bitting could result in some 'ghosting' between suites which a manufacturer would have gone to some pains to avoid.

Moreover, I should have said that according to Murphy's Law the setup is very unlikely to give you a completely spare set of 'levels' to work with. You might get one spare level in one stack, and that may be lower than the existing TMK (allowing the lost TMK to be easily altered), and then there could then be a MACS violation etc.

Many years ago, police found a length of glass tube on a suspect with some mysterious notches in the end. Local parking meters had tubular locks on the cash covers. The thief would normally plan to drop and smash the tube in 'emergency' situations.

It is ironic that you think that just because you proclaim it, it is so. It would seem that you are the one who is reluctant to accept any position other than your own.

Yes, you can construct an example of a system with two levels of keying or even a 'fancy' system with three levels of keying with one key at each level and make your proposal work. The problem is that a three level key system isn't that 'fancy' and I have seen very few of that type of system that is as limited as your proposal would require.

Key systems at the University level being discussed in this thread have a level of complexity you may not have dreamt of and typically have at least 4 or 5 and sometimes 6 levels of keying utilizing multiplex keyways and Engineering function keys. Your two dimensional solution to a lost key from somewhere in the middle of this complexity is naive.

If your proclamation about being wrong is true and made because you have seen where your proposal won't work then we truly do feel better for we will have prevented you from making a terrible error at some point in the future. We don't make our comments here for any reason other than to help those that ask for it.

<snip>

It's fairly easy actually, we simply read your postings and from the contents deduce the level of your expertise. It is obvious that you have done some homework and have better than average knowledge regarding theoretical key system structure. It is also easy to tell from your comments that you have not had the same degree of field application of that knowledge as some of us. In other words, it doesn't seem that you have 'been there, done that or gotten the T-shirt'.

We have all been where you are now. We have all made an amazing discovery involving a much easier way to do things. We have also found out why it isn't a good idea to short cut the tried and true methods that have positive results every time. You may accept our advice or not, we will be disappointed if you have to learn the hard way but we also understand that some people have to learn that way. BBE.

I've worked on Best locks, and have an idea why the plexiglass rod had two holes in one end.

Clever. But since I've worked with glass tubing, I have some respect for the skills of a person who could cut notches in the end.