Punch-card ballots - what's the real issue?

I think there is a lot of confusion about the issue of punch card ballots. I'm looking at this in basic logic, engineering, and rights terms, and am not denying ironies such as Davis having been elected by the same system as was challenged about the recall. (Well, someone has to challenge something for it to be dealt with, and apparently no one did before in CA.) It is often misrepresented as whether we should compensate someone for making a "mistake" in voting, but that isn't the primary issue anymore. (I say "anymore," because in the Florida 2000 election, some voters were confused by the layout.) The core issue is, the inherent physical unpredictability of the process. If you punch at a small perforated spot, it breaks fairly unpredictably. It may punch the chad all the way out, or it may be left hanging by 1,2, or 3 corners, or it may only be indented ("dimpled chad.") That is not a "mistake," like saying yes when you meant to say no.

This situation was a key issue of course in the 2000 elections, because many state or district rules said that the chad must be punched all the way out, or whatever number of corners, to count as a vote. The legitimate claim of unfairness is that this outcome can't be guaranteed, for even if you punch hard, random irregularities in the perforated border mean a high chance of hanging by corners. (You might as well say, "Throw a glass at the wall, so that it breaks into exactly four fragments.") People are told to pull out the chads, etc., but supposedly they are under time pressure, it takes some dexterity to pluck them off, etc. (This latter is the part of the issue I really don't have as much insight into.) In any case, voting shouldn't be like a carnival bean-bag throw for prizes. We don't need an explicit statement in the US Constitution about quality of voting procedures to see that reasonable quality is implied in the right to vote.

Neil Bates

Reply to
Neil
Loading thread data ...

Statistically, assuming one does not have physical impairments that would affect punching a car with a stylus, there is no voting difference between me, you, my mom, a white Republican in Marin, a Green in Santa Cruz, or a Latino Democrat in Stockton. Stay away from "butterfly" ballots, and set everything back to punchcards. Say "everything is equal, now shut the hell up." End of story.

Reply to
zach

Mechanical lever machines (as used here in NY State) came out on top (lowest error rate) in one study I saw after the 2000 Florida fiasco. They are a little trouble to set up and maintain (so I hear), but unlike any electronic computer solution they can be audited by *anyone* and do not rely on software -- all the internal workings are exposed for inspection when the votes are audited/recounted after close elections. In this era of government/corporate fraud and computer virus plagues, it seems to me that something like this would be highly desirable.

The only argument I remember against them is that the original company is out of business or something? My proposal is to have the sheet metal and other components made by the same prisoners that also stamp out license plates--low labor costs. With modern CAE/CAD software, the machine design might even be streamlined for less parts and/or easier assembly. Then, final assembly can be done by a bonded company (or whatever other precautions are taken to make sure that things are done correctly).

Reply to
Doug Milliken

There is one other significant argument against them--they weigh a ton, and require a serious crew to set up a polling place......

Reply to
Michael

Here in Canada, we had an election a few weeks after the US 2000 election. People in every single riding across the country voted exactly the same way: by marking an X with a pencil in a circle beside their canditate's name. The ballots were counted by hand. The next morning, we all knew the results from every riding in the country (though a couple did go for a recount). We still had to wait a few more weeks to find out who won south of the border, though...

No chads, no butterfly ballots, no fancy machines to screw up, and a complete auditable paper trail. Hey, it worked.

-Paul

Reply to
Paul Skoczylas

Sometimes we confuse low complexity with low tech. Pencil marks on paper ballots have many virtues, as cited.

Of course, we couldn't trust our fellow citizens to count by hand, and we need instant results anyway, so we'd need to spend billions on special readers for the ballots, right? Wrong. There's no technical reason that a Lotto machine couldn't be used to record votes. A polling place on every corner...

-Mike-

Reply to
Mike Halloran

One thing to consider is that California is already under a court order to adopt electronic voting machines. That court order weighed heavily on the

9th circuit's decision.
Reply to
Little Brother

No, it isn't. You're missing the whole point. It's not about whether people are equal, they are. It's the inherent physical unpredictability of the process, even if you have no impairments.

Reply to
Neil

Dear Mike Halloran:

This is used in Arridzona, in many places. You complete an arrow for your choice, and the computer reads which "arrows" are completed.

Besides, I don't want a random choice for elected office! Imagine Bush for the Power Ball...

David A. Smith

Reply to
dlzc1.cox

The ones we use in OC, CA can't weigh more than a few pounds, they sit on the cardboard shelf in the voting booth.

They are the lever style rather than the punch stylus type.

Reply to
Bob K 207

SNIP

I believe you're missing the point.... previous poster stated that lever style punch had avery low error rate. Punch stylus type are the problem.

btw don't you think that with all the discussion that voter individual QC will improve the vote accuracy? Or are voters not expected to have some brains?

Reply to
Bob K 207

Thus my suggestion of a re-design of the mechanical lever machine -- should not be too hard to reduce the size and weight, while maintaining the ability to be audited by anyone (no software involved).

Besides, I like voting with a machine of some substance--makes me feel like I've actually done something!

Reply to
Doug Milliken

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.