I remember, as an undergraduate mechanical engineer, 50 years ago,working with steam engines. The combination of steam and hot oil had a wonderful perfume. Now, whenever I am near a steam engine, I expect that smell. No luck.
Was it the oil that was used back then?
Mb-A
Superlube it is.
Gunner That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:59:55 GMT, Gunner calmly ranted:
[topic change back to Grandpa's rifle]What bluing do you prefer, Van's, Hoppes, Birchwood/Casey paste, or _________? Van seems to have some real admirers. I'd like to preserve the patina it already has (other than the nastyass rust spot) so I'm not going to be using steel wool on it as some of the instructions specify.
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I got some stuff from an art foundry which is used for patina. It's called M20 Antique Black. I've done a couple rifles that I bead blasted and applied the M20 after lightly heating the work with oxy/propane while hanging. no tank. A gunsmith friend was beside himself when he saw the result. He'd been using a tank and trying to get the color I had for years. Also did a friend's .243 that he wanted shiny & blue. Same stuff, but spun in the lathe using steel wool. He was quite happy.
michael
Vans is good, as are the others for the most part. The key is to heat the metal, clean out ALL the oil, heat and clean again, then heat and apply the bluing. When cool, wipe off the smutz, examine, and repeat heat and blue until it is the darkenss you want. This is HIGHLY dependant on the metal alloy itself. Some will go blue black with a single application, others may take several. The particular blue Ive got on hand is rebottled from an unknown supplier, distributed by Bobs Gunsights..the fellow who makes the two part insert material for making your own colored front sight inserts. He gave me a few bottles years ago and the stuff seems to go a long ways with few applications.
Before that, I was quite fond of 44-40 cold blue.
Matching the patina may be difficult due to the age of the weapon, the type of rust bluing done by the manufacture, fading etc etc.
Btw...good old fashion spray carb cleaner from the cheap store seems to work pretty well when degreasing, particularly when the barrel has been heated. (nearly spit sizzle hot for bluing. A heat gun is handy)
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
My working weapons, particularly my social rifles, have been fine bead blasted and then parkerized, then blued over the top of the parkerizing. Gives a very nice dull non reflective blue/grey color that blends in well.
Ill hunt around for the M20 as Ive a couple weapons in the works.
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Gunner,
My knowledge of blueing is that it makes a piece look real nice. That's the sum-total extent of it. So I have a curious question: what is "parkerizing?"
We have a .22 cal clip-fed Marlin that my dad gave me when I was a boy and wanted to learn how to shoot. So when my son was younger and wanted to learn to shoot, I gave it to him. And when his little sister wanted to learn, he "loaned" it to her. My point is that this little Marlin is over 40 years old now and has been around the block a few times, but it's still a great rifle. However, as I was poking around in the gun safe a while back, I noticed that the Marlin has started to develop some brown spots, so we're talking about having it re-blued. That's why I'm asking.
Interesting thread, BTW.
Thanks.
Scotty
I would be very interested if you could please post any info on this here that happens to arise, on this material.
I've been using brownell's cold blue solution to do tool blacking and it does seem to work pretty well. But I've been degreasing and then using a light HCl etch before using it. I've also found that putting the beaker wtih the item into the ultrasonic tank seems to create a pretty good coating rapidly. But under these conditions it does give a real coal black surface, not blue at all.
Jim
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For degreasing, I use a 50/50 mix of Acetone/Xylol. I buy a gallon can of each at a paint store and mix as required to fill a Shure Shot sprayer (presurised with clean shop air). I use it cold or mildly warm to degrease just about anything (e.g. Aluminum for TIG welding or arrow shats for fletching) and get water-break-free surfaces. As well as being very effective, this way is _much_ cheaper than buying spray cans.
Ted
Ultrasonic with the HCL, with the bluing compound, or with both? What dilution of HCL? (Not near the machine tools, I hope, as the fumes from HCL can be nasty.)
That sounds nice.
Thanks, DoN.
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:10:59 GMT, Ted Edwards calmly ranted:
Since I hadn't seen the term "xylol" anywhere, I googled it and found it to be a dye derived from xylene. Hmmm... I have gallons of denatured alcohol, paint thinner, 30% ammonia, and lacquer thinner handy. Wouldn't they do, or are acetone and/or xylene necessary? I haven't seen xylene (or xylol) on local shelves. How about naphtha? Lacquer thinner is my main go-to for deep cleaning anything (that it won't dissolve.)
- If the gods had meant us to vote, they'd have given us candidates. --------------
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 08:22:46 GMT, Gunner calmly ranted:
How hot? Solvents for cleaning have very low flashpoints. =:0
I prefer the blue/black to black. It's somewhat gray/brown now but he parts which haven't been abused are more blue/black. Do you know what bluing Winchester used in 1898 on Model 04's?
That hot, huh?
- If the gods had meant us to vote, they'd have given us candidates. --------------
Xylol is dimethylbenzene which is not a dye. Properties will be similar to toluene.
I use about 20 percent HCl, in water. As they say, add the acid to the water.... but I do that plain after cleaning. Then I put the parts in the Oxpho (brownells) blue solution in a beaker and then put the beaker in the ultrasonic full of water.
I find I only need a few blips of the ultrasonic to get a pretty thick dark coating.
This is mostly for small screws, etc.
I've done the locking knob handle for my UM milling machine, and the top locking knobs on it for the overarm. Also a proper setscrew for the tailstock dial on the SB, and a number of replacement fasteners for various lathes.
Jim
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I have some in an unlabeled jar. It has a bright blue color. I'll see if I can dig up specifics. Might try a web search.
michael
Amen! (But someone is less likely to start with the HCl given that dilution, anyway. And IIRC, it is sulfuric which is really nasty about adding water to the acid, since it is a major exothermic reaction.
O.K.
Great!
So far, when I've needed to darken things that I have made, what I've done for this is heat them up and dip into old engine oil a few cycles. A nice black finish, and rather durable, so far. But I didn't have a problem with temper to maintain with those items, anyway.
Great!
Thanks, DoN.
I like to heat the metal up until its too hot to hold in your fingers.
Yes..at least 4 different types on the same gun. Possibly.
Nearly
Gunner
"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden." Strider
Think of it as hard anodizing for steel .
Works pretty well on machine tool parts as well.
I think, unless you really want to spend the money...to simply do it yourself with cold blue. Its quite easy to do, just takes a few minutes and you can remove it easily if you dont like your attempt.
Btw... if you want to quickly remove the bluing from a part of entire part of a gun, or other blued object..simply spray it with spray on oven cleaner and let it sit for a few minutes. The blue will simply wipe off in most cases (except for some salts/rust blues)
Regards
Gunner
"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden." Strider
To the best of my knowledge, Xylol and Xylene are alternate names for the same thing. If you find one or the other as a solvent in a paint store, you have the right stuff.
In order of increased "solvent power", I have found alcohol, paint thinner, Acetone, 50/50 Acetone/Xylene (sic). Ammonia+detergent is pretty good for many things but needs _really_ thorough rinsing with water and a final rinse with R/O or distilled water.
I haven't seen xylene (or xylol) on local shelves.
I used Acetone/Toluene for a long time but I understand Toluene vapours are more harmfull than Xylene so I switched. Haven't noticed any degradation in performance.
Mineral Spirits, Stoddard Solvent and paint thinner are the same stuff differing only in price. :-)
I generally clean gungy parts with a good soak amd/or blast with paint thinner followed by a spray rinse with A/X. I "inherited" a dismantled weed eater that someone presumably had dismanteled, inspected and given up on. In all my years, I have never seen a carb in such disgusting condition. My neighbour, who is usually willing to tackle _any_ repair said, "That thing will never run." The above treatment plus a little elbow grease with a tooth brush got back into perfect operation.
BTW, I was able to find out that one of CRC's BrakeKleen(sp?) products, the one in the green can, is A/X.
Ted
Please Ted be sure to use this mix with as much ventilation as you can - preferably outdoors. And try to minimize contact with your skin as much as possible.
Organic solvents like this may be better or worse, but none of them are good. There really is anecdotal evidence that folks who work with a lot of them wind up with problems later on in life.
Jim
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