B&S Collets from Hardinge

You guys, may remember, that a few weeks ago, I was looking for a good source for B&S collets for my new dividing head.
Well, on 11-11-2004, I placed an order with Hardinge for two #7 Brown and Sharpe collets, one for 3/8” and one for ½”.
When I placed the order, I mentioned to the lady taking the order, that the collets were for a Taiwanese made, Vertex semi universal dividing head, size number 0, and that the diameter of the spindle hole was 18mm. The lady told me, that I did not need to worry about the fit, because all B&S collets were made to the same standards. Although this did not seem right, I reasoned, that since I was ordering from Hardinge, I probably did not have to worry about it, so I placed the order.
After a long delay, after 6 weeks, (the collets did not ship when promised), they finally arrived on December 24.
To make a long story short, the collets do not fit my tool. It’s not even close. I cannot fully insert the collets into the tool, they are stopped by the back end (the threaded part) of the collets. And even if I would be able to get them into the tool further, I would never be able to get them into the tool far enough for proper workholding, because the diameter at the mouth of the collets is too large also.
I have spent close to $100,00 (I never received an invoice either) from what I thought was the best possible source for collets in the USA, and after waiting 6 weeks (23 days were promised) I have a couple of collets, that do not fit my dividing head.
So now, it's dealing with the "customer service" department at Hardinge.
And people wonder why we are going to China, to have machine tools and everything else produced. I wonder how much longer before Hardinge folds too. They deserve to, if they can't even get a simple little order like this straight.
Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
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Bummer! Is it possible that the (import?) Vertex head was improperly specified or machined?
Hmm - I just ran a quick search on Vertex Dividing Head and found a listing at Chronos for the Vertex BSO dividing head. Is that the one you have? If so take a look here:
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Vertex_Dividing_Heads_46.html&CatalogBody
and click on the "More..." button to see some specs. It looks like the BS-0 head has a MT-2 spindle and the BS-1 has a MT-3 center. Is it possible that you actually need a MT collet?
Also see here:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/Forum3/HTML/001776.html
wherein someone mentions that Vertex changed from B&S to MT tapers a while back.
Mike
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Mike Henry wrote:

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Vertex_Dividing_Heads_46.html&CatalogBody
It is the same one, and ALL the specs in my manual are identical, except the taper of the spindle, which says it is a #7 B&S taper.
I bought it from Enco, and on their site, and catalogue it says the same also. See: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA 3-4000&PMPXNO•3522&PARTPG=INLMK3 and http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE&1
Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
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<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
It sounds like you got the P/N 203-4000 head. If so it might take MT-2 collets. AIR, you have a Clausing 8520, so you might try one of the MT-2 collets you probably got with the mill. Maybe Enco has a typo in their catalog and/or manual.
Mike
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Mike Henry wrote:

That is the one I have.

They fit fine from the looks of it on the outside, but I cannot tell how they fit INSIDE the spindle. Or may I assume, that since they fit, the spindle taper IS in fact a Morse Taper #2

You are right. I did, see above.

It's beginning to look like it.
Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
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It looks like you do have a MT2 spindle and that Enco tech support could use some training in dealing with customers. Maybe a letter to the president of the company would result in some sort of compensation for you and improvement in customer support. A minor side benefit is that you can probably get MT2 collets much cheaper than B&S collets, assuming that you don't want to use your 8520 collets. Or need the same size collet in both the mill and head for a milling job.
Mike
Mike
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Abrasha wrote:

I think I'd find the dimensions for the tapers in question and measure them to make sure. Calipers plus whatever round crap you have lying around plus cleverness should give good enough measurements to tell one from t'other.
Nice ring on your website, by the way (and if I have my scale off, then "gawdaful thick metal on your bracelet").
--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Tim Wescott wrote:

I am beginning to think, that there is a possibility, that I might in fact have a dividing head with a Morse Taper #2 in the spindle, instead of the claimed B&S taper. Which means that the Enco catalogue was wrong, and the manual for the dividing head is wrong also.
From http://www.gizmology.net/tapers.htm I found:
Morse Tapers:
#2     minor diameter: 0.572"     major diameter: 0.700"
B&S Tapers:
#7    minor diameter: 0.600"     major diameter: 0.725
I measured the diameter of the spindle hole at the opening, and it is 18 mm (as stated in the manual), which is 0.708", so I would think it is made for a #2 Morse taper and not for a B&S taper, at least based on this measurement. I talked to Enco today, from where I bought the dividing head, and they were not very helpful. They simple denied the possibility that they might have sent me a dividing head with a Morse taper instead of a B&S taper. A B&S taper will never properly fit that hole, no matter what Enco claims the taper in the hole is.
As it turns out, there is a somewhat serious mistake in their catalogue. Take a look at this page again: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE&1
Take a look at the "Head Stock ID Taper" for Model #325-1470 (bottom left of the page). It says "3MTB&S". Obviously, this is nonsense.
Strangely, exactly the same mistake appears in the MSC catalogue for the same tool. Take a look at http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE07 (lower right of the page)
I do not know how to measure the minor diameter of the taper inside the spindle, but I also have a center that fits into that spindle, and I would think, that it should not be too difficult to determine what kind of a taper that center has. Enco wants me to send the dividing head back to them. It might be easier to send that center back, and have them measure that.
Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
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I haven't looked at the numbers - but the logic of using the diameters can be confusing. Many tapers don't extend to the full extents or may extend beyond. The distance between the two diameters would yield slope (of sorts).
I have a MT4 to MT2 adapter that is 1 1/2 (mind measure) and is not any where close to the length of either tapers.
I've had MT2 tapers that were MT2, but longer than normal and not fit due to length. Tail stock center screw keeping it from seating.
I suggest looking at a wood hobby web page - oddly they have what WE need also. Taper cleaners - made out of plastic. They also have taper cutters - but those are typically in metal catalogs.
I suggest you get a plastic taper and see how it fits. If it bottoms out, then cut the end off a little - until it seats. Then sweeping in a circle have it clean the taper. extract and look for an even oil streak or pickup...
Or use bluing on a taper that seats and see what is touched and what isn't.
Might need a plastic taper cleaner to get the blue out!
Martin
Abrasha wrote:

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net
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No suprise, they're the same company, probably made the web pages from the same data except for stock-on-hand and price. Try Penn Tool, Victornet, J&L, Wholesale Tool or one of the others and see if you get a better answer (assuming any of those carry the vertex)...
--Glenn Lyford
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Try a MT2 shank in the head. If hardinge screwed up and fabricated the wrong dimensions on the collets, they *will* take them back.
Jim
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jim rozen wrote:

It is beginning to look, that it was not Hardinge who screwed up, but possibly Enco AND the manufacturer of the dividing head.
Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
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Enco product descriptions are incorrect fairly often. Vendors change specs, and Enco carries a lotta products, it's bound to happen.
WB ..............

the
also.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA 3-4000&PMPXNO•3522&PARTPG=INLMK3

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Wild Bill wrote:

I agree with you, and that would be fine. But Enco denied that possibility today. The tech was adamant about the fact that it is a B&S taper in that dividing head. I am beginning to be sure that it is not.
Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com
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Abrasha wrote:

Please keep us informed of your progress. I'm looking for an indexing head and I too puzzled over the "3MTB&S" in the Enco catalog.
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Have a look here for taper dimensions
http://www.motortoolmanufacturing.com/Tapershankspecifications.shtml
WB .................

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Abrasha If you have a MT2 center from a lathe put a thin line or a few small dots of Prussian blue,or grease down the side and insert it in the hole. If the line of PB is evenly spread by the contact with the hole you've just found that the hole is MT2. Try the same with the BS tapers and if you only get point contact then you've proved your point. lg no neat sig line.

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