Building a generator

Tough part, I think, would be holding a steady 3600RPM.

Dave

I wonder if somehow making a temporary mounting plate in the engine compartment would be better? SO, in power outages I could mount the head and run it off the tractor. Will a generator head be hard on the tractor? Obviosuly it is old. (I think a 1948). But would only use the generator once or twice a year.

The tractor sits outside. The engine is wrapped in a tarp.

Would i need some type of 12volt clutch puly on the generator head?

10000 watts is only what, 13 horsepower, figure efficiency is low so how about 25 horsepower?

But still, if you're running anything other than incandescent light bulbs you have to hold it at 3600rpm (generator speed) or you won't get 60HZ.

Dave

It is probably better to have another engine. I just dont have one that big. I have an 11 horse off a lawn mower.

By the way, can a generator be spun in either direction?

There are about 800 zillion PTO generators around the USA. They run at a PTO speed of either 540 rpm or 1000 rpm. The PTO speed is attained with an engine speed in the range of 1500 rpms; the exact engine speed depends on the tractor design. Your Ford 8N has a 540 rpm PTO. You have to know this when you get the generator (really an alternator, but you probably know that). 1000 rpm PTO outputs are found on tractors a LOT newer than yours (I have had one of those, a 1948 model, since 1973).

Almost every Dairy farmer around here has one just sitting there by the power pole, ready to be "transfer switched" when a power failure occurs. Can't not milk when the cows are ready!

Your 8N had 23 PTO HP when new. I think I'd look for a 10KW generator for it. If the tractor's governor is in reasonable shape, I think the only thing you'd have trouble running properly is a clock. Just because you have a 10KW generator, doesn't mean you will be pulling 10KW out of the system, so unless you are airconditioning, you should be able to get along well.

These PTO generators are available at farm sales, new at places like Northern Tool, farm stores, implement dealers, Ebay, Craigslist etc., etc., etc. I think that the farm sale used ones are more likely to be in the 25KW range, but I'll bet you could run that one too, it'd just loose a little more power internally than the smaller ones.

Your two biggest real world problems will be: Feeding it enough gasoline Feeding it enough engine oil if it's tired.

Rule of thumb that I've heard on fuel consumption is that the engine/generator will consume about 25% of max fuel usage just sitting there running, with no load at all.

I didn't do the math, but all this means that you have to know roughly how much gasoline you'll need and maybe already have it on hand somehow when the storm hits. If you are a farmer, you already have hundreds if not thousands of gallons of gas and diesel sitting there, otherwise??

Pete Stanaitis

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stryped wrote:

You need to gear it up from your PTO something like 6.66 :1 because yout PTO is 540 RPM and the generator needs to be 3600. You could use the front of an old bailer - IIRC there is an 18" =/- multi sheave pully on the flyweel? - run that to a 3-4" or whatever pulley on the generator - and the flywheel will help carry that poor little Ford through power spikes.

tractor?

>

The 8N had a crank, right? - no , don't even go there - driving off the crank bolt would loosen the bolt - but there WERE linkages made to mount a hydraulic pump on the front of the tractor for a loader so there has to be a way you COULD mount it direct drive on the front.

However, I think running it geared off the PTO is a better solution. Put the genny on a small trailer with a PTO shaft and gear it UP something like 6 - 7:1 Might not be able to get quite full output - the 8N was 23.22 PTO horsepower fresh out of the box and a few horses will likely have "left the barn" over the last 60 years.

That generator would be good to use bolted into another piece of power equipment you have handy (and don't need to use in a power emergency) like a combine, or tree chipper, or such. Something that already has a good governor you can make hold stable within +/- 25 RPM...

And you will have to play with pulley ratios to go from the RPM of the drive point you have available (most Diesels don't like turning above 2500 RPM) to get the 3600 RPM that this alternator head needs to be spun at. And you'll probably need double or triple sheaves on the engine and alternator, they have to be aligned fairly closely, and a matched set of belts - plus a spare set.

If you want to use it on a tractor PTO, go buy a generator head already set up specifically for that use. They come with the three- point hitch, and the PTO input shaft, and a gearbox to kick up the 540 RPM tractor PTO speed to 3600 RPM generator speed. And your tractor needs to have a good constant speed governor, or the power output is going to sag and surge a lot.

Oh, and if your tractor or combine engine starts to overheat or runs out of oil it will be destroyed, because they usually don't have safety shutdown systems. They are built to be operated attended only. You can add the safety shutdowns yourself, but it usually takes a very expensive disaster to deliver the message they are a necessity.

I would strongly suggest a real skid-mount engine generator set, someting like

just needs a shed, a transfer switch, (but preferably an Automatic Transfer Switch with a trickle charger and an excercise timer), a fuel tank, and a Kim Hotstart block heater.

It's going to drop into place, plug in, and work without a bunch of fiddling around - and if you expect farm hands or relatives to operate it (and not destroy it...) you want simple and easy operations. And built in safety shutdowns (overspeed, overcrank, oil pressure, water temperature, head temperature, etc.) if something goes horribly wrong.

If you live out in the country, you might be able to buy a used generator set where a big-city company had to upgrade to a Tier 3 or Tier 4 emissions compliant unit - meaning they had to scrap their old unit with plenty of life left to make the Smog Police happy.

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All he needs to do is tell the order person that he needs the 8N cruise control, Dave.

With the coupon, it's only $79.50 on sale.

If you want to use the tractor PTO running at 540 rpm, you need to be looking at something more on the lines of this gem from HF:

's 4 times the money but it is double the power and much easier to get up and running.

Most of the dairy farmers will have one of these inside a shed to keep it out of the weather. When you have an outage, open the door, back the tractor up to it, slide on the PTO, you are good to go.

This is a good way to get short periods (few hours) of heavy duty power. It is not a good way to run for days > Had a really bad ice storm. I would realy like to have a generator for

Someone on either rcm or a metalworking web site mentioned they managed to snag dyno rollers from a chassis dyno and attached an alternator head. When the power goes out, they use their econobox car with the cruise control set properly to run their loads.

Wes

Definitely longer. Some got their power back in 3-4 days but we have been out for ten days now (got a generator today).

It ain't much fun...

Best -- Terry

Terry wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

Congrats on the new genny.

Which one did you get?

Cheap chinese generator (All Power?)... it's what was available. Not much choice around here right now. 5000 W supposedly. We've been able to run an electric heater and a microwave plus a bunch of small items---lights, etc.

On this subject, I plan to make an adapter so that I can plug my stove into the generator. Obviously I won't be able to switch on the oven, it would blow the breaker (about 10 KW). But i should be able to run at least one burner (about 2500 W). 12 Ga wire should do the trick. Any negative thoughts on this procedure?

Best -- Terry

I think using a generator for a burner on a stove would be very inefficient. I would buy a five gallon propane tank and five gallons of propane. A couple of propane lanterns and a propane camp stove. Either buy an adapter to refill the hand held propane tanks, or adapters to use the lanterns and stove on the five gallon propane tank. Using propane this way will be a lot quieter than using a generator.

While we are on this subject...............I bought a led flashlight at Target recently. It uses two D cells and has three leds for light. It provides a good amount of light and is suppose to work for

100 hours on two alkaline D cells. Cost about $9. Only mentioned as it seems a cost effective flashlight. Not too expensive to buy, and not expensive to use. Comes with two non alkaline batteries which are suppose to last 40 hours.

Dan

Terry wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

Depending upon the model, you may already have a 25A or a 30A twist-lock socket on the genset.

If so, that's the one to use with the stove since the average small burner is around 1000W and the larger ones are around 1500W.

As an alternative, consider getting a couple of electric hot plates that may also prove useful in the shop later.

You may also wish to consider installing a corn/pellet stove by replacing a pane of window glass with a metal pass-through for the stovepipe. This will provide lots of heat for not too much ca$h.

Yes - It will work, but... Save your gasoline for the generator for useful things that only electricity can do, like running the computer and the refrigerator and microwave.

You are just stacking inefficiencies turning gasoline into combustion heat into engine power into electricity and then /back/ into resistance heat again. Too many conversions.

For the cooking duties in a disaster situation it's far more efficient to go buy a Propane Barbecue, preferably with a "Side Burner", and a few 20-Pound (5 gallon) exchange tanks. (I have four, so there are always two full tanks.) And for all-night light and incidental heat, a propane lantern and a post adapter.

Or a good old Coleman Lantern and Camp Stove, the new ones (designed for it) will work fine on plain Unleaded Gasoline if you can't get Coleman Fuel. Same reason - single conversion Fuel to Heat.

And keep both the generator and the BBQ outside the main house - Carbon Monoxide is NOT your friend. A lantern you can chance, as long as you provide ventilation for it. NOT if you have the house super sealed with triple storm doors and had the air infiltration tested.

The BBQ can be a under a patio overhang if you must, but keep in mind the radiant heat from the gril, and possible flare-ups from the fat drippings - unless your patio cover is all steel, the heat can set the roof on fire if you do it just right...

If you want the BBQ under shelter while in use year round, build a semi-permanent big metal vent hood to park it under. Let the heat create a natural draft in a short vent stack.

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Agreed, it's inefficient. My thoughts were (a) I don't have a propane stove [do have one on order, though]; (b) generator is on in the evenings anyway, so I'm not turning it on just to run the cooktop; (c) the wife knows how to cook on the stovetop so I won't have to do so... :-)

Already got a propane lantern, two 20 lb tanks, and a catalytic propane heater. Up to Wednesday it was way too cold to run the BBQ.

Thanks for that tip; my neighbor has a coleman lantern and camp stove, and looked all over for coleman fuel during the outage. I'll let him know that he can use gasoline, thanks!

Generator is just inside the garage door, with the door all the way up, and exhaust pointing outside. I didn't put the wheels on it because there are some unscrupulous types out there. A friend's neighbor noticed too late that his generator was running but the heater wasn't. Turns out someone started his lawn mower, left it running by the generator, then stole the generator...

Best -- Terry

The BBQ still has to remain mostly outside, if the weather is bad it has to live in the garage next to the generator with the door up. And aim the generator cooling air at the BBQ bottle to get the pressure up enough to work with, when the temperature gets into the minuses Propane stops vaporizing.

This is why your Summer Project is to build a big vent hood on the back patio. I have to put the word out around here, the next restaurant that gets torn down I want one of the hoods.

The stoves and lanterns /have to be/ made for use on Unleaded Gasoline and marked to show same, or be one of the newer models that can be retrofit with the right generator, or it'll clog up and fail. Or worse, it can do something spectacular you should catch on video.

Whether you send the footage to "America's Funniest Home Videos" or "Destroyed in Seconds" all depends on /how/ it fails - I'm not going to predict the failure cascade on that one, but gasoline can literally be 'liquid dynamite' if it all goes wrong just right. And you are pressurizing it in the fuel tank of the stove, so a leak can make a nice atomized mist of fuel with a convenient nearby ignition source...

Have I made my point? There's a time for experimenting, and a time to stay with boring and safe. Do the experimenting when the hospitals aren't already full of emergency patients, and the ambulances aren't doing 10 MPH at best, dodging downed trees and big patches of Black Ice from the water main breaks.

Three words: Rabid Pit Bull. Or four: Logging Chain, Huge Lock.

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