Clausing 5914 has arrived



This was my fear too. I just priced new Aloris and Phase II in the MSC catalog, and promptly lost interest in Phase II. The price difference just isn't large enough. I'll have to see how used prices run.
Joe Gwinn
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    [ ... ]

    As I saw a few articles past the one to which I replied. :-)

    And the current problem is that the site currently has their catalogs down for updating (presumably for the new year), and they want me to register to be notified of the update. I tend not to register at sites unless I *really* need the information. :-)
    The interesting thing about the illustration (which I had to turn on Flash to view -- I hate things like that, too) is that it shows a version with *three* tool stations, not just two at 90 degree intervals like mine.

    [ ... ]

    Note that is *Emco* -- not *Enco*. Emco is the Austrian maker of lathes and milling machines which made my little 5" CNC lathe. They used to make a matching manual lathe, but no longer do so.
    [ ... ]

    The pin is almost certainly not intended to lock it in position, but just to be an indicator to tell you when you have rotated it sufficiently to cut the bevel which you want.
    I tend to keep mine oriented so one side is parallel to the workpiece axis and the other parallel to the chuck face. If I want a bevel, I switch toolholders to one with an insert at the desired angle. This assures that it is properly set up to hold threading insert tools in the right position -- unless I've had to change the angle of the compound -- such as for switching between standard threading or Acme threading (or potentially Whitworth threading, if I ever do that), or switching from right-hand threading to left-hand threading or back. In those cases, I need to re-orient the BXA holder on my compound on the 12x24" Clausing. For the Compact-5/CNC with the Dickson style toolpost, there is never any need to change the angle of the toolpost, as all angled cuts are handled by the CNC itself -- including threading infeed.

    Note that when you get a new post -- even from Aloris -- unless you have paid extra for the mounting plate to be specifically machined for your lathe (in which case you will need to feed them information about the lathe's T-slot), you will receive a blank mounting plate, which you will need to mill to the proper dimensions for *your* T-slot. Usually, this simply requires changing something like this:
/ / / / +----------------------------------------+ | | | | / | |/ +----------------------------------------+
to something like this:
/ / / / / / / / / / / / / +------------------+ / / / / | |/ / / +----------+ +----------+ / | |/ +----------------------------------------+
So it will slide into the T-slot, leaving the height of the center just a little below the top of the compound when it is pulled up as tight as it can be. There is a pre-tapped hole in the center of the plate which accepts the mounting rod on the toolpost.

    There *is* no reasonable price in my opinion (as a retired hobbyist on a fixed income) -- especially for a genuine Aloris. As a result, I have a set of Phase-II wedge style which I got when they were on sale (Series 200, which is the same size as the Aloris BXA series). I've added to that extra holders which are Phase-II (always purchase new American-made setscrews for holding the tool shanks, as the sockets in the supplied ones tend to split out when you crank down on them). I've also obtained Genuine Aloris holders from eBay and other used sources, and purchased two specifically new -- because I could never find them in an eBay auction which closed any lower than 10% under the new price in MSC's catalog. :-) Those two are the BXA-16N (which mounts two triangular carbide inserts -- one for turning and one for facing -- on opposite ends of the holder), and an extended reach one (whose number I forget, but you can find them in the MSC catalog) which is particularly nice when threading, as it allows me to reach in with a threading tool with proper support without hitting the live center with the toolpost.
    Note that AXA size holds up to 1/2" shank tools, while the BXA holds up to 5/8" shank tools -- and that extra 1/8" does make a difference in rigidity.
    I've also picked up some interesting Aloris only tools, including a very nice knurling tool in which the knurls are held in two arms which move on a vertical dovetail, with a leadscrew coupling them with a left-hand thread for one and a right-hand thread for the other, so they maintain the centering on the axis (once initially set), while you adjust the spacing for the size of the workpiece being knurled. The knurls apply to the top and bottom instead of having to be pressed in with the cross-slide, so the load forces on the machine are much less than with the common "bump" style knurlers -- which are often supplied as part of an Aloris or Aloris-style kit. Those are mostly useful for facing, using the half-toolholder in the other end. :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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I have the 3-station version.

I was reading it as Enco. Oh well.

Is the above plate what becomes the big T-nut that goes in the big T-slot on the top of the compound rest? If so, it came with one of these. It looks shopmade, by someone with a vertical mill. The T-nut screws onto a piece of 5/8-18 UNF threaded rod that goes through the toolpost body, a spacer, and a hex nut. The big problem with the shopmade T-nut is that the 5/8-18 thread is not quite perpendicular to the faces of the T-Nut, and so the nut wobbles visibly on the rod. The rod threads are damaged, and the rod may also be slightly bent. So they had the mill, but perhaps not quite the skill.
What appears to be missing is the shallow "T-nut" plate that goes between the top of the compound rest and the bottom of the toolpost body, and has a series of 8mm holes to accept the index pin. I assume that this plate also serves to space the toolpost up to the correct height with respect to the spindle axis.

Yes. Rigidity varies as the cube of the critical dimension (diameter in this case), so (0.625/0.500)^3= 1.95, call it twice as rigid.

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their prices.
Joe Gwinn
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    [ ... ]

    That is what I was afraid of. It is a pity that the two names are so similar.
    [ ... ]

    That is correct. It comes as a blank with a new toolpost (at least so with the new Phase-II toolpost, which is the only post which I have had new.)

    Hmm ... the Phase-II has a metric thread which is quite similar to your 5/8-18 -- probably a 16mm thread. And the plate comes pre-tapped in the center of the plate -- but you do have to mill down the plate to make it into a 'T'.

    Did you see one in the Dickson catalog? (I got there too late to download it, so I don't know what it has. Probably there is a new one up by now. :-)
    But my guess that the pin served for an index was assuming that it was spring loaded and did not project very far. Looking at the images from the Toolmex catalog, I see that there is a pin which goes all the way through the body of the toolpost -- which suggests that it is expecting a hole to be drilled to accept it for setting it properly, but that won't work on a compound like what we have on the Clausings, because those can be set to any angle. You might drill a hole to match the pin at the single most common setting (on my Clausing and Phase-II toolpost, that would be at the 29-1/2 degrees for right-hand threading.
    However -- my Emco clone of a Dickson does *not* have such a pin, and there is where such a pin would be most useful, since the toolpost mounts directly to a steel plate on the cross slide, and it can't be set to other angles.
    As for the height -- that is handled by the nuts on the screws on the tool holders -- so each is set to the proper height for its own tool. I somehow doubt that you would need to block up the ToolMex or Dickson on the Clausing compound.
    But -- perhaps you should get some stock of the proper thickness and size and make your own T-nut with the threading being done in the lathe -- mark the center by scribing a pair of diagonal lines between opposite corners. Hold it in the 4-jaw chuck and adjust so that intersection point is truly on center. Then center drill for a start, drill through tap drill size, and using the live center in the center hole in the back end of the tap, drive the tap with a wrench as you use the live center to push it. I would use a gun tap if available, to avoid having to keep backing up the center and the tap to break chips.
    Once the hole is on center -- and truly perpendicular to the plate -- then mill the sides to make it into the right size T-nut. I've done this to make a spare T-nut with the right post threads to allow mounting a toolpost grinder on the compound. And *that* I also needed to make a spacer cylinder to start it off at proper center height to save time during subsequent setups. (I haven't actually *used* the toolpost grinder yet -- but it is now ready for use. :-)
    [ ... ]

    [ ... ]

    Well ... since the shanks are square, there is no diameter here, but that is close enough. :-) Probably a little more strength for the corners which would be missing in a round shank -- but pretty much the same for both sizes of square shank so the ratio is probably the same.

    That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference. (It also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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OK.
OK. If one buys a new Aloris, they will make the plate for you, partially ofsetting the cost differential. With used, one will make one's own plate.

I haven't yet gotten that catalog.
Having cleaned and inspected the Dickson toolpost and holders that came with the lathe, I'm losing interest. They are quite heavily used and in some cases abused. Some of the setscrews are bulging and cracking near the tips, and will need to be replaced with dog-point hex socket cap screws. I had to drill the stub of one busted setscrew out.
That said, I'll probably fabricate a proper set of plates, and keep the Dickson system as a backup.

There is a pin, but it is loose, without springs.

None of these height adjustment pancake nuts came with the set, and the posts onto which they thread are mostly in bad shape. The mangled threaded posts can be replaced, but it will be an effort to get the old ones out. They are very hard, and appear to be upsidedown hex-socket setscrews.

Yes. And I did get the 4-jaw chuck. What I didn't get is the slotted faceplate. Drat!
Can also be done on the mill, using a piloted tap wrench. I may just skip the holes for the 8mm locator pin until such time as a need presents itself.

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.
Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and why. You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to connect the dots.
Joe Gwinn
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    [ ... ]

    [ ... ]

    O.K. I did not know that for sure. (And see later -- this does not seem to be really the case.) They would either have to have measurements from you for *your* T-slot (as they vary a lot), or know the model of the lathe and know for sure that it is the original compound. It *may* be pre-cut for the largest likely T-slot, and have to be cut down some more for other sizes.
    [ ... ]

    I'll bet that they are set in with Locktite. If so -- heat the holder while gently twisting the mangled screws with small vise-grips. You don't need to (and shouldn't) apply much torque -- just a little. When it gets hot enough, the wrench will turn easily, so you know when to stop heating. Then just replace them with allthread or long setscrews as appropriate.
    You ideally should have at least one height-adjusting nut to copy. But if you don't, here are the things to bear in mind.
1)    The flange goes between two flanges on the top of the cam     one continuous, and one (the upper) interrupted to allow the     tool holder to be lifted clear. The thickness of the flange on     the nuts which you make need to be just a little thinner than     the spacing between the two flanges.
2)    The diameter of the flange needs to be enough to reach from the     stud almost to the bottom of the groove between flanges on the     locking cam.
3)    The height of the stud on the holder should be high enough to     allow the height-adjusting nut to be screwed on enough to hold     with base of the holder level with the base of the toolpost, and     short enough to allow the nut to be screwed on enough to lift the     holder on the V-rails so its top is level with the top of the     post. The Height adjusting nut needs to be long enough to allow     some threads from the stud at the lowest position of the tool     holder, and some threads from the lock screw at the highest     position of the tool holder.
    And the ones which I have use Metric threaded setscrews and height post screws. (But they are too small to fit our Clausings anyway). Check to make sure whether you have metric or imperial threads on yours.
    [ ... ]

    That seems reasonable. I do wish that mine for the Compact-5/CNC had the pin -- because *there* it would make sense.
    [ ... ]

    :-)
    O.K. MSC catalog time. Sigh -- I wonder which volume now that they have split it in two. :-)
    Hmm ... first off -- the notes accompanying a set of Aloris toolpost and holders says:
    "Tool post T-nut may require machining for your application"
so don't depend on Aloris doing it all for you. :-)
    First - the ones which come in the sets:
1)    Style 1 -- turning and facing. Get quite a few of these, since     you want to have one for each tool which you are likely to use     often, so they all can be set to the proper height -- or you     lose part of the quick-change feature.
2)    Style 2 -- boring, turning and facing. The difference here is     that there is a V down the center of the bottom of the slot,     good for holding boring bars, but still usable for the other     tools as well.
3)    Style 4 -- boring, heavy duty. This is what you use to hold     a 1" diameter boring bar which accepts HSS lathe bits. I've     used this both for boring and for internal Acme threading which     a home-ground HSS tool. But you are unlikely to need more than     one.
4)    Style 7 -- Universal parting (cut-off). This, with a Mo-Max     cobalt steel T-profile parting tool is very nice to have.
5)    Style 10 -- knurling, facing, and turning. Only if someone     *gives* it to you -- and only to use for facing not for     knurling. For knurling -- either a scissors style knurling tool     or the one which I will describe later.
    Above -- replace the word "Style" with BXA-" to get the full     part number.
    Now -- others which I find of interest.
6)*    BXA-13 -- "new extension tool holder" -- good for threading     without hitting the tailstock live center. (I would like to     have a couple more of these, but I do have *one* -- bought new.
7)    BXA-5 and BXA-53 -- Morse taper holders -- useful for drilling     with carriage power feed. In the BXA size, the 5 is MT-2, and     the 53 is MT-3 -- both useful -- though with only one, go for     the 53, and get an adaptor sleeve from MT-2 to MT-3.
8)*    BXA-6 -- multiple tool holder. A grid of setscrews to hold     more than one tool at a time -- groove and bevel or part at the     same time for production work -- usually best with a turret     handling other tasks.
9)    BXA-19 -- the fancy knurling tool which I mentioned above and     earlier. $286 in the MSC catalog at present -- perhaps more     when you call in, because prices keep going up.
10)*    BXA-16N or BXA-16. The double-ended insert holder. The 'N' is     for negative rake tools -- which with the right chipbreaker     groove still cut as positive -- but which have six cutting     points instead of three for the triangular inserts.
    The ones marked with a '*' after the ')' are the only ones which I bought new -- because I needed them, and I could never find a reasonable enough price in eBay auctions -- only perhaps $10.00 less than new price.
    There are other interesting ones -- but these are the ones I have, either genuine Aloris bought new (the ones marked with '*', or Phase-II or used Aloris for the others.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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The Aloris website and catalog says that they will machine the plate for you. MSC does not mention this, but some other distributors do.

Good point. I was going to use a torch on the studs anyway, to soften things a bit, so the pliers can get a grip. And to break any rust, if something that greasy can rust.

The threads are all imperial, 5/16-18 to be precise.
I will try to buy the correct hardware, especially the pancake nuts.

Well, don't depend on MSC to tell the whole story.

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.
Joe Gwinn
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    [ ... ]

    O.K. I think that it is more trouble than it is worth for MSC, just as they don't list the option of getting the toolmaker's hammer engraved with the user's name -- which you can order through other vendors, and Starrett does the engraving.
    But most people who order a *new* Aloris toolpost also have a milling macine available, so they can prepare the T-nut locally more quickly than the communications and extra shipping to have Aloris do it. Even if I were to buy a brand new Aloris toolpost, I think that I would machine it in house instead of jumping through the extra hoops to have Aloris do it for me. :-)
    [ ... ]

    Hmm ... "pancake nut" sounds like what Aloris uses. And the difference between the Aloris and the Phase-II is that Aloris uses a keyed lockwasher which engages a keyway on the stud, while Phase-II uses only a plain inner star lockwasher, increasing the chance that the setting will shift as you tighten the locknut.
    I'll attempt to do an ASCII drawing of the Dickson/Emco/ToolMex nut. As usual, view with a fixed pitch font like Courier to avoid the distortion which comes from a proportional pitch font.
+-------+ +-------+ ||||||||||||||||||||||| <---- Knurled grip ||||||||||||||||||||||| +---+ Z Z +---+ | Z Z | | Z Z | <---------- Waist | Z Z | | Z Z | | Z Z | (the 'Z's are the internal thread for | Z Z | height adjustment) | Z Z | | Z Z | | Z Z | | Z Z | +------+ Z Z +------+ <-- Flange +----------+ +----------+
For the Dickson style -- the Aloris pancake nuts won't work.
    [ ... ]

    O.K. But as I said above -- I would probably do the machining at home anyway -- and I think that MSC expects that for most purchasers.

    [ ... ]

    The two above are what I would look for as the first additions to what comes in the "set". Of course -- if you aren't planning to use insert tooling, the BXA-16 or BXA-16N would not make sense for you. But you did ask what *I* would buy and why, so I tried to answer that. And since you have a lathe of similar manufacture and size to mine, I think that it is not too bad a selection. The multi-tool holder makes more sense if you have a bed turret for your machine (as I do), and plan to occasionally go into small "production" mode. :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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DoN. Nichols wrote:

Nice ASCII art. All of the Dickson and Toolmex holders I have, have this nut fitted with a square head set screw to allow the nut to be locked by doing the set screw up against the top of the stud the nut is fitted on.

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    [ ... ]

    Thanks.
    My Emco ones are similar -- except that the setscrew is an Allen head cap screw -- just as are the screws which clamp the tools into the holders. I suspect that square head ones just aren't made that small. (4mm IIRC).
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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I have a mill too. I don't know which approach is more trouble. Turns out that MSC gives you one more holder in the starter kit than Aloris, and skips the machining, so the machining costs one holder, call it $75 to $100.
By the way, what is the diameter and thread of the hole in the Aloris T-nut? 5/8-18? (It might be cheaper to get an extra Aloris T-nut than to buy the 5/8-18 tap needed to make a new T-Nut for the Dickson.)

I will try to buy real Dickson pancake nuts, when I figure out who in the US carries them. Or ships to the US under reasonable terms.

No apology needed. I asked your personal opinion, based on your experience with actual use (versus my catalog-reading). I also note that there is considerable agreement between your list and the various starter kits on offer as to the four or five most necessary holders. This is exactly the kind of information I need.
Joe Gwinn
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    O.K.
    I honestly don't know. While I have several Aloris tool holders (some bought new) and the fancy Knurling tool -- I only have a Phase-II toolpost -- which has a metric thread. But that is pretty close to a 5/8" -- probably 1 16mm, so I would expect 5/8-18 for the Aloris.
    But as for "cheaper" -- MSC currently has 5/8 HSS gun taps on sale in the lastest flyer for as little as ... hmm ... no 5/8" taps in the flyer except a long-reach (extension) one by OSG which is 5/8-11 and $41.79. The nearest standard gun tap in plain HSS is 1/2-13, which is $7.49, with the non sale price at $10.05. So I suspect that the tap which you want is a lot more affordable than a new T-nut plate from Aloris. :-)
    Besides which -- at 5/8" -- you should be able to single-point the threads so you won't need a tap.
    But a chunk of hot-rolled steel should suffice -- just get one big enough to make one or two T-nuts from.
    [ ... ]

    Why not make your own? I've made some for some of my holders for the Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC. I never even *considered* buying the nuts.
    [ ... ]

    But that was to cover those who may (want to) say "but this isn't what *I* would suggest (with or without suggesting on their own). After all -- not everyone is happy with the same tooling.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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I think that the blank T-nut is about $40 too. Or was that the machined T-Nut?
In any event, if one has the tap, then one can make any number of T-Nuts.

Chicken-and-egg problem. I first have to learn how to make threads on the lathe.

OK.
Joe Gwinn
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I remove and tighten the ring on the L00 with a stick and hammer. The wood will not beat up the ring.
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The wood will not beat up the ring, but it can't be good for the headstock bearings to be beating on the spindle. I change chucks fairly often. I forged a hook spanner from some 1" x 1.5" bar stock for my L-1 LeBlond.
Carl Boyd
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Carl Boyd wrote:

That got my thinking. I assumed from how smashed up the holes on that ring are that it is Aluminum. But I see now it is attractive to a magnet.
I thought of myself as babying that ring by using a stick to hit it after all the damage it has taken being hit with metal at Boeing and/or AIE Industrial in the 40 years before I got the lathe.
The link to the picture of my lathe is still good from the auction, 6 years later: http://www.murphyauctions.net/past/aiemindustrial.html#pic1
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On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:38:29 -0800, Clark Magnuson
SNIP

Hey Clark,
Hmmmm....in the photo, there is a tool box suspended under the chip tray. Looks like a good idea. Is that still there, and if so: How useful is it? Does it get a lot of chips inside? What do you store in it.
Take care.
Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario.
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Brian Lawson wrote:

The lathe came with the tool box attached, and it is still there, but cleaner. It hold the manual, boring bars, cutting tools, woodruff keys, etc. They drilled into the catch pan and bolted on (4) "L" brackets. Those brackets are also bolted to the tool box. Two steel shipping band loops also that wrap around the bottom of the tool box to hold it together. There is enough space under the tool box to slide things under it, like 5 gal buckets of round stock or wooden cradles holding 12" chucks.
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Clark Magnuson wrote:

I loosen and tighten the L00 ring on my Kerry 1140 with the C spanner provided. The ring is hardened and harder than the C spanner so while the C spanner looks beaten up the ring looks undamaged and is probably 35+ years old.
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The lathe came with the correct pin spanner, made by Armstrong. Just engage the back gear and whap the spanner arm with a lead hammer.
Joe Gwinn
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