Gut feeling is TIG is the one to avoid. MIG likely not so bad. Finding a
cardiologist
that knows TIG and MIG is going to be the problem.
Were you given a list of things to avoid?
Be careful and don't be a lab rat,
Wes
Does an implanted cardiac defibrillator preclude use of MIG and TIG,
particularly TIG with HF?
My limited web research indicates not but I'd like to see more data.
Here's what I've found thus far:
Don, NO ONE is going to say its OK - there might be a 0.000001%
probability that it isnt - so they will automatically say NO. This
applies to most situations, especially when your trying for, say, a
building or planning permit.
My approach is just to say "Fuckit" and go ahead and do it. Your
family can always get a refund on the thing if you kark it....
No, seriously, if it was a problem, it would have surfaced by now, so
give it a go - if your worried, have someone nearby who can do CPR if
its a lousy guess......
Andrew VK3BFA.
Hey Wes, don't be a wimp - is this the spirit that made your country
great - cant be, otherwise you would all be sitting back in England,
worrying about being shipwrecked on the way to America.....
Theres a lot of RF around anyway, the place is flooded with it. Cell
phones, power lines, radio transmitters - etc etc - and what if your
neighbor fires up his welding apparatus?......
And Don's probably in better health than hes ever been, after giving
up the smokes, lottsa exercise, eating properly - his main danger
will be from being beaten to death by a jealous husband! And if you
cant use your toys, is life worth living?
(Obviously, Don will make up his own mind on this one..........)
Andrew VK3BFA.
My first question when i read something like this is who wrote it and
how thorough were they? This article gets five stars on both counts.
As a fella that knows WAY too much about MAYO clinic, I can tell you
to trust anything they endorse. Their methods are world class.
Now I'd still use a little extra common snese. If you use bare wet
hands and stand in water while welding you know that you're in for a
rude surprise. Personally, I'd take this idea the complete other way
and use neoprene gloves and stand on a rubber mat.
Or as option "B" , "the Kid" may be the best TIG welder around. He
owes me favors. I owe you favors. he works five miles from your house.
Of course, your better 1/2 would have to feed him, and that's not
easy.
Karl
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:07:35 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:
What, the tinfoil suit and hat don't catch enough for ya, huh, Don?
I'd want at least 2 grounded hands/wrists and a grounded body cover
(perhaps an apron?) if it were my ICD. Safe > sorry.
That makes it sound safer.
Cookie-setting error.
--
Books are the compasses and telescopes and sextants and charts which other
men have prepared to help us navigate the dangerous seas of human life.
--Jesse Lee Bennett
"Gut feeling?" Is that the feeling one gets just before everything goes to
black?
If Don is the smart man I think Don is, Don will not let Don's ego and the
know it all attitude of others answer this question. Don will go to the
doctor and ask that doctor or cardiologist. Either that, or we will put
"ANDREW SAID IT WAS SAFE" on Don's tombstone.
Since a 5 way bypass, aortic valve replacement, broken back, and current
ascending aortic aneurysm, I can personally say that anyone who doesn't slow
down in the face of serious medical situations is an idiot with a death
wish. Don't mean you have to sit in the recliner in the closet, you just
pay more attention to the WALK/DON'T WALK signs. There's a lot of things
I've given up that don't make me think in any way that life is any the less
worth living. I used to be a commercial diver, and have more time in a
decompression chamber than a lot of scuba divers have underwater. On
Christmas week, I was snorkeling on Kauai. Many times. I was dying to go
scuba diving, but thought that I might just do that exactly, and didn't want
to put anyone ELSE in the position of having to take care of me. If one's
life is not worth living if they can't weld, then that life has to be pretty
shallow. I don't think Don qualifies on that.
And Don, go ask the doc, and do what he says. Some here have enough
experience to give you valid advice. The others are talking through their
Carharts. The best advice is to ask the doc and do what HE says. He's done
pretty good so far, hasn't he?
Be well.
Steve
A Google of "tig welding and pacemakers" brings up a lot of things. A lot
of guys say they weld with pacemakers and no ill effects. Thing is,
pacemakers like hearing aids are being changed and improved all the time.
So, all statements are not an across the board thing. What works for one
person may not for another. And some may be more delicate and sensitive
than others. And everyone doesn't have the same problem or body.
Check with the doctor, Don.
Steve
One wonders if it would be worthwhile to talk to the manufacturer of
the pacemaker?
I agree that is it a good idea to find out for sure, but this could be
a "cover your ass" situation, where the doctor may not want to say
yes, only to later see the patient "die when TIG welding" and get
sued.
Better safe than sorry, would be a good approach here, though.
Contact the manufacturer of the ACTUAL unit. Talk to the folks who do
the testing and see what they say. You don't want to talk to the normal
customer service script readers.
The doctors will likely say NO because they don't know and want to cover
their asses.
Please note that the first article was written in 1995 which means that the
data will be at least 15 years out of date. The specific Medtronic models
are probably no longer in use. Second, TIG or MIG were *not* specifically
mentioned. Third, if you accept their findings and recommendations as
applicable to *your* system can you really and reliably keep the arc away by
61 cm? I know I cannot! Also, do you enjoy "delivered therapy" (read:
inappropriate shocks)?
I am sorry I cannot comment on the second article which the web site will
not open for me.
This is a highly subspecialized field. Your best bet, as others advised, is
to talk to your pacemaker clinic doctor, nurse and the rep of the company
that made your defib. The company reps can be especially helpful in
un-earthing arcane research items etc.
Seconded - When in doubt, they will say No. Especially if their
malpractice insurance provider hears about the question.
You need someone who can say Yes if at all possible. Most likely
you need a team approach, probably your doctor and the research staff
at the pacemaker manufacturer. They need to analyze the exact body
(yours) the exact equipment installed, and be very familiar with the
exact usage you want to do, and come up with a list of things to
mitigate the risks.
Or analyze it enough to say what is Absolutely Verboten, probably
the only thing would be TIG with HF. That stuff will jump gaps and
"Reach out and Touch you" but good.
And what you can do, which is probably everything else - as long as
you take extra precautions to not be part of the circuit.
IMHO the minimum precautions would be Class 0 or better (tested and
rated) Electrical insulating gloves under your welding gauntlets,
standing on rubber or vinyl insulating mats, no resting your elbows on
a grounded welding table.
And if you weld Stick, rig up a foot switch and a contactor so the
stinger is dead except when you want to weld. That's why I never
bought a Tombstone Welder - I don't like the thought of the stinger
staying hot, too many chances for a big OOPS!
The thing to avoid at all costs is current through the body trunk -
arm to legs going right past the heart & pacemaker would be the worst.
The doctors might suggest a chain-mail vest or coverlet, or something
lighter like a vest made of the woven Kevlar and Stainless fabric used
for butcher's cut-protective gloves and clothing - something to cut
down the RF radiation making it to the upper body.
(A tinfoil vest would be too cliche, and probably ineffective. And
copper foil or screen mesh would be a pain.)
Remember that all electric based welding is a spark-gap transmitter
spraying random RF Hash all over the EM spectrum, and it can only be
tuned and controlled so much.
-->--
One of the RF protective suits used by tower crews working with love
transmitters would probable do the job. The same for the suits used by
the folks fixing transmission lines from helis.
Both are probably far in excess of what is actually required though, and
just not wrapping the welding leads around your chest is probably
enough, though I doubt you'll get anyone with any authority to take that
stand due to paranoia.
DC to Daylight...
I shall talk to the Dr. on Friday ... but I suspect that he'll know
about as much about electrical engineering and welding as I know about
cardiology. The docs I've had the good fortune to work with have not
been particularly legally gunshy, tending to say what they know and
what they think fairly openly.
The article from the JACC (Journal of the Americal College of
Cardiology) was most illuminating in that it cited quantitative data
-- millivolts, amperes, flux density (in gauss rather than Tesla, well
they are cardiologists). Current levels cited there 900A) are
considerably higher than any I ever employ.
Anecdotal reports are that it's not usually a problem and if it is a
problem it won't fry the device or its user: advice is if you feel
light-headed or wierd, just stop welding.
Medtronic HQ is right here in Fridley, if I could figure out a way to
talk to an engineer there. All the guys I knew that worked there are
retired now.
I just realized that I do know someone at Medtronic. I think she's an
MD. Her husband was a colleague of mine and I saw them both just a
couple of months ago.
How about a different approach. Others have mentioned a conductive suit.
Shield your welder and welding leads. Greenfield flex conduit over most
of the cable with shielded Zippertubing over the rest. More difficult to
use the welder, of course, but _perhaps_ a significant reduction in
radiation is enough.
The key is to find out what levels the medical device is required to
withstand. The manufacturer is more likely to tell you the test standard
than to tell you it's okay to engage in an activity over which they have
no control.
This page has some standard levels, and compared to the death ray
business (200v/meter is common) the field strength the medical devices
have to stand is next to nothing.
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If in doubt, don't. There are lots of other things to enjoy.
Kevin Gallimore
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