electric motor forward/reverse wiring?

hey, i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe i need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner. not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110 instead.
can anyone help/tell me how to do it?
posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the drum switch...
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

-snip-
think i might have figured it out.
b.w.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

believe
Could you show us your findings?
Jean-Paul
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

yes, thanks for your interest Jean-Paul. i wanted to post a drawing asking for advise as to whether or not i wired it correctly. i made a drawing and uploaded it to...
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg
first i wired up the drum switch only just to the 4 wires coming from the motor, i didn't hook the wires up to the pins inside the motor. got a "hum/buzz" sound, obviously something wrong. gambled that i needed to hook the "hot" and "neutral" wires up to their respective pins (white-4 orange-1). i did that and it ran, whew, wow, yay!
my concern now is that because i didn't hook up the red and black wire to any of the pins i'm doing something wrong and either will burn up the motor or it won't generate it's rated horsepower.
can anyone confirm that i did the wiring correctly? as far as i can see none of the wires have any numbers printed on them or little numbered tags, etc. (i've seen this in other electric motors).
thanks.
(it does run forward and reverse and it *sounds* ok, but i'm no expert at all.)
b.w.
(oh, trying to hook it up to 220 totally boggled my mind, i gave up on 220 and went with the 110.) (even after reading the excellent information in the link provided by Glenn i was still unable to figure out how to wire it up to 220.)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    Yes -- you were getting power only to the start winding -- not to either of the run windings. If you left it powered up, you would either burn out the start winding -- or far more likely, you would blow the innards out of the start capacitor. (If that happens, you will be able to tell by the smell -- and start capacitors are cheap, at least. :-)

    Those extra pins (2) and (3) are isolated, and are there just for convenience in connecting a remote switch or for connecting for 240V operation.
    It should give full rated horsepower -- but there are significant problems here.

1)    You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US     practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.
2)    You have hot and neutral carried through to pins 1 and 4     Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The     unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals     of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing     grounds to the motor frame inside, it could either render the     motor housing and the lathe hot, thus risking shocking you. Or     -- if you have safety grounds connected (which you have not     shown) it can leave the motor drawing current, and perhaps burn     the (already damaged) windings up -- and possibly start a fire.
    I spent some time posting a text description of how to wire for 240V -- but I don't see it yet, so I can't expect you to have seen it either.
    The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to the frame of the lathe, and on to the safety ground pin in the wall plug. This wire should be green, and there are probably screws inside the motor wiring box with their heads painted green, and maybe one in the drum switch box (though that may be old enough so they didn't paint the screw head green.)
    If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better choice for something which you will be starting and stopping frequently
    Your wiring shown probably would run -- but it is unsafe.

    Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that should do it for you.
    If you still have questions -- or can't find the article -- send me an e-mail and I'll dive back into it.
    But -- if you *really* want to run at 120V, let me describe how to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.
    I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:
(A) (B)
(C) (D)
    (E) (F)
so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so desire.
1)    First -- connect the black motor wire to motor terminal(3), and     the Red motor wire to motor terminal (2). There is nothing else     in the motor connected to these pins -- they are there only for     your convenience in such things as this. These two wires are     the start winding -- internally connected to the actual winding,     the capacitor (under the bulge), and the centrifugal switch.     This winding is 120V only -- though there is a trick which makes     it work in the motor wired for 240V.
2)    Run wires from these two terminals to switch terminals (A) and     (D).
3)    Connect the motor's orange wire to the motor's terminal (1) and     the motor's white wire to the motor's terminal (4). These get     left connected. They complete the connection of the two run     windings in parallel for 120V operation. You don't need to run     them out of the motor case at all.
3)    Run the hot power line wire to switch terminals (C) and (E).
4)    Run the neutral power line wire to switch terminal (B) and to     motor terminal (4).
    Yes -- I said not to switch neutral -- but this is necessary to     reverse the start winding in 120V mode -- and at the same time,     the other side of the start winding is also disconnected from     the hot.
5)    Run the switch terminal (F) to motor terminal (3).
    And this should give you reversing operation at 120V. (As suggested above -- 240V operation would probably be a better choice, and that would be covered in my other article -- which you may be reading as I type this one. :-)
    Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found, which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are for, after all. :-)
    Let's try to sketch what is actually in that motor -- using "(#)" to indicate a numbered terminal, and "(C)" to indicate a colored wire. Note also that I use only numbers 1 though 4, so 'O' is a letter -- orange wire, not a number.
+----------------------------------------+ | | | (1)+WWWWWWWWW-(W) | | | | (2) | | | | (3) | | | | (4)-WWWWWWWWW+(O) | | | | (B)-WWWWWWWWW--)|-o/o-(R) | | | +----------------------------------------+
    "-)|-" is the capacitor
    "-o/o-" is the centrifugal switch.
    "-+WWW-" is a motor winding.
    The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which     is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.     (Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal     plate.)
    Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.     This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to     splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.
    So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to     the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is     connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.
    If you connect (W) to (4), and (O) to (1), then the two run     windings are connected in parallel, and they both get full 120V     from connections to (1) and (4).
    If you connect (W) and (O) together, the two run windings are     connected in series for 240V operation. This is done in the     motor drawings which you posted by connecting both of these to     terminal (3), which is otherwise doing nothing. This still     leaves terminals (1) and (4) for the incoming power.
    However -- this center point (3) also has a voltage which is     120V different from either end of the incoming power, so it can     be used to power that 120V start winding. And each of these     windings has only 120V across it, even though you have 240V     connected to the motor.
    I hope that this helps.
    Enjoy,         DoN.         
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
-snip-

huh. thanks. i'm surprised, well, i don't want to do anything that's not approved.

shit. i didn't even notice that teh hot was hot all the way through to the motor, i was so focused on getting the wires in the right position. that's part of the reason i decided to bag trying to wire it up to 220 because i'd have one lead hot all the to the motor there too. just as a fine point and i don't want to contradict you but i think the neutral is switched, when the drum switch is in the middle postion it's off. that's what i think anyhow. dang about the hot though!

yeah, that's part of the reason i figured i didn't want to wire it up to 220, because one lead would be hot all the time. i figured i could just unplug it, but reading here in the past you guys have said stuff like, "yeah, but what if you sell it?" or "what if someone else uses it?" so, i figured i'd better be safe, but i didn't notice the hot was hot all the way to the motor with this 110 set up too! dang.

i try to be safe. would rather be safe than sorry.

yeah, was gonna. was so focused on just trying to get the motor to run, forward adn reverse, was leaving that part out. fully intend(ed) to run a green ground wire throughout. there's a green screw in the internal wireing area. thanks.

i preferred wiring it to 220/240, heard motors are more efficient that way, but the 220 wiring was totally boggling my mind. it's a 3/4 horse motor.

ok. back to the drawing board.

thanks. hope so. i briefly scanned it, will get back to it in detail after this.

thanks very much for taking the time to help me with this. i had no idea where to even start to look for information about this. (figured i was going to have to talk to an electrician and they always seem to want money.) :-(

i started to make a Paint drawing of your schematic and realized that i DO want to (at least TRY) to wire it up to 220. so. i'll have to go read your other post.
-snipped, for now-

the drum switch has several different wiring diagrams printed on what appeaers to be asbestos adhered to the curved sheet metal cover. i wanted to scan it to show you guys but can't. the harbor freight instructions are pretty basic, no drum switch instructions.

that's what the HF instructions are like. one way or the other.

i dissassembled the motor... so i could push the wires out of the way, (when i feed in the four wires from the drum switch the wires that are already there inside the motor were going to be MAJORLY in the way) and saw the innards, but i was so focused on moving the wires i didn't really pay attention to what's wired to what. duh. i didn't even take notice of teh two non- wired pins that you've mentioned.

did you check out the link posted by Glenn? they have pretty nice illustrations there. .pdf file though, takes a long time to download.

thanks Don, i think it did. whew, i'm afraid i'm developing a large karmic debt to you.

b.w.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    The reason that it is not approved is that it can create unsafe conditions, of course.
    [ ... ]

    Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I came up with a fairly ugly pattern when I first re-wired my Clausing from 120V to 240V. I later re-wired it for a much cleaner design, after battling the available switch sections in the drum switch. (It would have been easier with one more switch section, but it would then need more wires between switch and motor, so this is better overall.

    Good to plan for safety. But I know how the eagerness to get something working can result in an unsafe design.
    [ ... ]

    Good.
    I wasn't sure whether you had actually run a ground wire and just not drawn it, so I felt that it was a good idea to mention it just in case.
    [ ... ]

    With a 3/4 HP motor, it will probably be a wash in most things, though the higher currents to be made and interrupted by the drum switch will result in slightly faster wear of the contacts. I don't know whether it will make enough difference to result in failure in your lifetime when used purely as a hobby lathe.
    [ ... ]

    So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position of the (Red) wire in the motor.
    [ ... ]

    I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)

    As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V option.
    [ ... ]

    Asbestos? That is an old switch, isn't it. :-)
    More recent ones (e.g. about 1957 -- the date of manufacture of my Clausing) seem to have the label printed on white vinyl. Of course, the switch may be a later addition, as I've seen catalog photos of the lathe with pushbuttons instead of a drum switch. :-)

    As is common for this kind of motor from other manufacturers. They all assume that if you want run-time reversible, you will be using three-phase motors. Nice if you have three phase power available. Or, if you use a VFD to get variable speed while you are at it.
    And the wiring for a three phase motor with the same drum switch is much simpler.
    [ ... ]

    Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other terminals before applying power. Just because my tests on my (much older) motors show that does not promise that HF did not do something strange. :-)
    Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V, you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

    I did not check it out at the time -- and the article has now expired off my newsreader so I can't check it now. As a result, I don't know what it may show. (It was pretty late at night when I hit it the first time, and I already had an image in my head of how to do the wiring and how the motor was set up.
    I'll snip my text description for 120V -- as I believe that you already have it saved off.

    I just like to share what I know to help others.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
P.S.    Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for     the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms     like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?
    It makes reading a little more difficult, and it drives my     spelling checker nuts. :-)
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
-snip-

wow, you ain't kiddin'

whew. i've been working on this problem for hours and hours and hours. i've been trying to figure out a solution on my own. i thought it would be more satisfying if i could've figured it on myself. actually i do think i came up with a workable solution but it would necessitate buying a new, different design drum switch. (that is if Jim's CRAPPY schematic works). i'm impressed with your wire routing.

thanks. hadn't run the ground wire yet but kept eyeballing the green screw on the motor housing reminding myself that i would when i got it figured out.

yeah, like you said, prolly won't be an issue.

yeah, that purple wire going to nowhere was confusing me and making me feel very depressed. i swapped the red wire end for end and am hoping that will be ok, red/black - black/red.

thanks again for helping me. you've really put a lot of time and energy into this problem. i'm eternally indebted to you. i've always wished my brain could grasp and comprehend electrical stuff. every time i've tried to solder up some sort of home made electrical device i've failed miserably, i mean, i can do, i believe, basic electric house wiring, and i can solder, but electronic stuff never works.

thanks. i made up some more diagrams in Paint last night.
this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic and the drawings in the link Glenn posted (that have major missing information). (and my own sketches from disassembling the motor) this is the one where i need a new/different switch. i don't know if i can locate a switch like this to buy so was plotting to try to modify the switch i have now.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240final.jpg
-snip-

:-) i have an electrical checker thing. not sure if it's called an ohmmeter.

i dissassembled the motor. as you suspeced earlier, there aren't (any connections between 2 and 4). i took apart the motor to trace the lines. the only way i could figure out how to do it (easily) was to poke one of the probes through the varnish coating on the windings wires. i'm worried it's not ok to rupture that coating. i sprayed polyurethane onto the place where i broke through the coating. hope that's ok too. as a side question, that is something i could never understand. how/why the electric current wants go to through the wires instead of just bridging across each other to the "shortest route". i always thought that VERY thin varnish coating wouldn't be enough to insulate the wires from each other. how does that work?!?!

:-) besides a safe installation i also like a neat installation. my intent is to get some stranded 14ga. wire and bundle four wires (black/white/red/green) inside a 3/8" BX jacket to run between the motor and the switch (with crimp eye connectors on the ends) and run a 14/3 extension cord from the switch to the 240 wall socket.

sorry about that. it must be a habit picked up from using various chat programs. typing as fast as possible. the long explanation for not using capital "I" is i was trying to train myself to have some humility.

sorry.
thanks Don dude!
b.w.
oh, i uploaded a cleaned-up version of your wire routing drawing.
www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240dons.jpg
i swapped the wires to "C" and "D" as you suggested. and swapped black for red.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    [ ... ]

    Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch with that switching pattern.
    What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch. Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal (C).
    So -- let's see:
=====================================================================Plug | Switch | Motor ===================================================================== Blu o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+ (L1)-----+----o------>o | | | o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3) | | | Orn | | | | | +----o | | Red | o<------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- + +----o | | | | | | | | | o-----+ | (L2)-----+----o------>o | o--------+
(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)
    All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.
"+"    s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles
"-|-"    is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.
====================================================================    I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals.
    [ ... ]

    Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to do it.
    FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)

    Well ... as I said -- I was playing with this kind of thing back when I was in grade school -- so it was plenty of time for things to sink in. :-)
    And I also did a lot of playing with telephone switch gear, so I learned relay logic, which is not that different from what we are doing here.

    And I've downloaded them.

    Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any chance?

    Comments above.

    Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?

    Good -- glad to have that confirmed.

    Hmm ... that enamel on the wire is tough stuff, and is pretty good insulation. And remember that no single winding on this motor has more than 120V across it. And there is an additional layer of insulation wrapped around each winding to separate them where they cross. And that is quite sufficient.
    I don't know how good the polyurethane is, but it is at least better than not replacing the insulation at all.
    I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish. Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).
    [ ... ]

    O.K. One suggestion. Don't use white -- look for some other color, because white should be neutral in house wiring (even though black is ground in electronics wiring).
    [ ... ]

    I was afraid that latter was the reason for the lower-case 'i'. I opt to go with the standard English language writing process, as it is easier for others to read. (And the capital on the first word of each sentence helps to distinguish between a period '.' and a comma ',' -- which are a bit difficult to tell apart on my screen at my usual distance.
    [ ... ]

    You're welcome.

    You mean 'C' and 'B'? That was for the case of the motor running the wrong direction when you switch it to forward. Just showing you one of the easy ways to set things up so the motor runs the right direction when switched to FORWARD.
    The wires on (E) and (F) can be interchanged as well, but I selected that pattern to make the (L2) hot line jumper between (F) and (D) short, and not have to jump around the switch. There are also ways to set it up with (A), (B), (C), and (D) to move that hot line to (C) and (E), and the other hot to (B). But I started out with one hot to (A), and that sort of pre-selected (D) as the other hot.
    Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the frame/base and the motor itself, so that would leave the motor floating relative to the lathe frame. In my case, the drum switch is screwed directly to the headstock casting, so it is well enough grounded.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Huh, I was afraid i wouldn't. The link posted by Glenn... http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf has illustrations with that kind of switching pattern but I guess that must just be an electrical schematic huh? :-( (pissed me off in that article the author says something like "...you're on your own..." (with the "alternate switching pattern", which of course MY drum switch has!)) (and i suspect every other drum switch manufactured in the united states also has.)

Yeah, when I was trying to create a mental picture of what I needed I thought "triple pole dual throw" switch, and tried to find it on on-line (mcmaster.com, etc) and couldn't.

I think your ascii got scrambled up.

I'd think that would've been easier than all this hassle.

Huh. For me I'd think "intuitive" would be forward/right, reverse/left. (or maybe that's the way the lathe that i had used in the past was wired and got used to that.)

-snip-
I don't konw. Jim posted this link...
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/wire.jpg When i say "crappy" I'm not talking about it's electrical validity, just that it's SMALL and even if i enlarge it the details are blurry. I guess it isn't important that I be able to read "BU" or "BK" (or "WIRE NUT" or "SMUDGE") but coming from where i am, knowing nothing about electric wiring, I felt it would've been helpful to eliminate any ambiguity. (and i dont' think the drum switch in the drawing is the same as mine so that made it entirely more complicated, felt i was on a fool's errand trying to desipher that drawing.)

I do believe it can measure resistance, I don't know the terms, ohms, resistance, etc. I put it on the capacitor and it did what i read somewhere it would, pegged at one end of the scale and rapidly drop to near zero. It's an el-cheapo "Sperry", i stole it from Home Depot (i'm just kidding) (teasing Harold).

Huh. I was trying to find which one was the starting winding (i read the starting winding used thinner wire, trying to find which color wires went to the thin wires) but now I'm guessing the starting winding is obvious because it's the one with the capacitor and switch on it.)

OK, thanks.

oops.
Thanks. (Yeah, that's what i meant, 'C' and 'B'.)

Thanks. Yeah, this motor is w/o rubber bushing, my intent is to rigidly attach the switch to the headstock casting too.

Thanks again.
b.w.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    Hmm ... no -- I think that it is wiring of a double contactor to emulate that switching pattern.

    Well ... the one on my Clausing is pretty much as yours is, but another which I have (of the sort which is used for the three-phase motor on a Bridgeport) is closer the kind shown in figures 5 through 8, and you can even see the cross-over wires if you look carefully. They are black insulated, and the switch body is a black plastic, so you don't see them at first glance.
    That kind makes more sense to me -- because I don't have to analyze the wafers of the switch in the other to tell what it is doing.

    They exist as toggle switches -- and even 4PDT -- but they aren't high enough current to reliably handle switching the motor live, only switching direction while it is stopped. And you would really want a 4PDTCO (Center Off) -- or you could not stop the motor.
    I used a rotary switch designed for high currents -- gazillions of screw terminals.

    I think that you were likely looking at it with a proportional pitch font -- which will scramble *any* drawing done in ASCII with a fixed-pitch font. And since different proportional pitch fonts are different widths for different characters, they don't all look the same, while a fixed pitch font, like Courier, will look the same on all machines. I see that there are some offsets put in by your quoting, so I'll fix them above, and you can try switching to Courier (or perhaps *printing* it with a fixed pitch font)
    There -- it is back as it should be for the moment.

    Except that it doesn't have the right kind of handle to really *feel* right.

    What are the labels on your drum switch? I'll bet left is forward, right is reverse.

    The big problem is that it is showing three mechanically joined, but electrically independant single pole double throw center off switches. You can't do that with your drum switch, though I could with the extra which I have -- after cutting loose the crossover wires and replacing them in the right pattern.
    The circuit which I provided would work with any drum switch designed for three-phase motor reversing.

    Ohms are the units used to measure resistance.

    Sperry should be a pretty good brand, actually.
    [ ... ]

    Yes -- that is it.
    [ ... ]

    O.K. That should do it.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Here is the best explanation I have found: http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Hey Glenn, big thank you for that link. read the whole thing, still not sure though if i wired up my motor right. i'm concerned that i didn't hook up the red wire and the black wire to the pins as specified in the directions. (previous message w/ link to diagram
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg )
b.w.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually connected to inside the motor. Apart from start and run windings, there's other stuff like capacitors and overload switches to confuse us. Unfortunately the terminals aren't always using the same code letters/numbers to describe them, but they can be a help. One system I came across uses codes beginning with U, V and Z, while another uses codes beginning with P and T. Here's how I successfully wired up a Taiwanese single-phase 240V motor for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead of a drum switch: http://tinyurl.com/moep7
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    I see that you have later posted that you believe that you have figured it out.
    If not -- it may take a bit more information. There are fairly easy ways to set it up for 240V with the information which you have given and the drum switch which you have, but they have the disadvantage of leaving one side of the motor hot when it is switched off. There is a better way to do it. I believe that the black and red wires are the starting winding (120V only) These are the only two wires which change place from the forward to the reverse setting.
    Terminals (1) and (4) are each connected to *one* of the two run windings inside the motor where you can't see it.
    The other ends of those two windings are white and orange. It doesn't matter which is which for our purposes. But -- I believe that the white wire is the other end of the winding connected to terminal (1), and the orange wire is the other end of the winding connected to terminal (4).
    So -- for 240V operation, they are both connected to terminal 3, which is not connected to anything inside the motor. It is there just to allow such things as this.
    They are actually reversing the pair of wires for the start winding by disconnecting them both. However, an alternate way to do this is to leave one end of the start winding connected to terminal (3), and alternately connect the other to either terminal (1) or terminal (4) to select motor direction.
    Since you want to do the selection at the switch, instead of at the motor, this is where terminal (2) comes into play. I would suggest that you connect black to terminal (3) (along with the white and orange), and connect red to terminal (4).
    Now -- you run to the switch. wires from terminals (1), (4), and (2). (Also make sure that the motor has a safety ground going to the ground from the power cord and to the frame of the lathe.)
    Now -- the place where we need more information. We need a way to identify the switch terminals, which you simply drew as:
Forward o-------o
o-------o
o-------o
Reverse o o | | | | o o
o-------o
We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the motor.
    So -- using the "Forward" image:
(A)o-------o(B)
(C)o-------o(D)
(E)o-------o(F)
    So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)
    The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).
    Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)
    Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).
    At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety ground, of course).
    Note that you can't "plug" reverse -- that is switch from FOWARD to REVERSE or vice versa while the motor is spinning. You have to switch it to STOP, wait for the motor to almost stop, and then switch it to the other direction. You can only plug reverse three-phase motors, or (perhaps) repulsion start motors -- which you don't have at the moment.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
-snip-

quick reply (full reply tomorrow) here's what i got from your description. i have a feeling i didn't get it right. please let me know if this drawing matches your description.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240.jpg
b.w.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    [ ... ]

    A good thing that you drew it out. I see one problem. I apparently did not mention that the (RED) motor wire should also go to terminal (2) instead of to terminal (4).
    Other than that -- it looks good.
    As drawn, the power from switch terminal (E) goes to an otherwise empty terminal, and thus does nothing. As shown, it would run in the same direction no matter which switch position you selected.
    Oh -- and it it runs in reverse when the switch is set to FORWARD and vise versa, swap the wires to pins (B) and (C) on the switch. (Or the wires from the switch to pins 1 and 4 at the motor. I think that the motor has tabs which you can push connectors onto, as well as studs which you can wrap wires around or connect crimped ring terminals to, so if you used the push-on crimp terminals, it may be easier to change at the motor.
    I would be interested to see what your drawing of my 120V description looks like as well. It may also have an error from my forgetting to describe *everything*.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

i abandoned the 120V drawing, didn't complete it, didn't save it. sorry.
i finally wired up the motor and switch. disappointed to report the darn thing won't start on it's own, in either direction. it does run if i spin it up by hand but won't start up on it's own. could it be because i transposed the black/red wires? dang!!! did i burn something up/out?
b.w.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    [ ... ]

    That would only change which direction it starts -- assuming that one is connected to pin (3) and the other to pin (2) as shown in the "240dons.jpg" image.

    First question -- just to be sure. You *are* connecting it to 240V aren't you? I'm not sure that the start winding would produce enough torque to reliably start it at 120V.
    O.K. Time to do a bit of debugging. Are the motor wires push-on crimp connectors? If so, disconnect the motor wire from (2) and push it onto (1). Switch the motor on, and see if it starts. If so, note which direction, then stop the motor and move that same wire to (4) and switch the motor on again. If that spins up, check that it spins in the other direction. If you don't have push-on connectors, you will have to do a bit more work wiring it up -- or use clip leads for the tests, if you have those.
    If it spins up, then the start winding is now proven to work, so it is in the wiring at the switch.
    If it doesn't, use a meter to measure the power between (3) and wherever you have the wire connected.
    That voltage should measure something near 120VAC. If it measures the right amount, and the motor still does not start on its own, then we have to check what has happened inside the motor. It could be that the centrifugal switch is not making contact, or the wires to the capacitor have slipped off their terminals under the bulge. (Or -- the capacitor was damaged during earlier tests when it did not spin up. Pull the bulge and look at the capacitor. If there is gunk inside the cover, or oozing out the end of the capacitor, it needs to be replaced.
    However if it does spin up in the two earlier tests, you now need to measure the voltage coming from the switch to terminal (2). Measure that relative to terminal (3). That should be near 120V when the motor is switched on, and close to zero when it is switched off.
    If you don't get that, it is a problem with the wire from (E) to (2), or the switch element which connects between (E) and (F) in the FORWARD and REVERSE positions. Check all of that wiring to see where you are not getting your power through. And measure the (E) to (F) switching (with the motor unplugged, of course) to make sure that the drum switch *does* connect them in both the FORWARD and REVERSE positions.
    One other possibility -- is the switch upside down relative to the drawing? That is, the terminals which I have called (E) and (F) should connect both in FORWARD and REVERSE, while if you have exchanged ends on the switch, you will only get connection in the FORWARD position, (really terminals (A) and (B).
    A pity that we don't have actual labels on the terminals for the drum switch, instead of the ones which I dreamed up to be able to talk about this.
    So -- do your tests and let me know what you find.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hi Don, Thanks again for your patience.

I assumed I was. Today I went out, plugged it in, flipped the switch and the dang thing strarted right up. Did it a couple more times and it started, then it started NOT starting. I probed the two lines in and one of them was dead. Probed it at the outlet and one was dead there too. Reset teh breaker and both were hot. Started the motor and started up, kept trying and it would start sometimes and wouldn't others. Probed teh wires again and one was dead again. Reset the breaker, started to realize that it was the breaker that was tripping. Thought it was internal problem with the motor. Finally noticed (to my great embarrassment) one of the hot lines going into the motor was touching the case. i had stripped just a LITTLE too much insulation off one wire and (to my great embarrassment) one of the hot wires was just barely touching the case, and of course, tripping the breaker each time i flipped the drum switch. eeek. Guess it's a good thing i had wired up the ground this time huh? So, now it starts but not 100% reliably. I guess that'll have to be something I'm going to have to live with. Seems to start right up like maybe 85% of the time, sometimes it won't start at all, some times it starts jerkingly. Sorry to have caused you to type all the below <cringe>. Thanks very much for your patience. It sure has been a learning experience for me. It is fantastic to see this motor running there clamped to my workbench. It was fun to probe the wires in the switch. I was surprised to see, as you say below, one of the wires was "...close to zero.". Woulda figured it would either be 120 or ZERO. I assumed that must be juice remaining in the capacitor huh? I was probing, getting either 120 or zero and one time i got 220 and was like "wha' da frig?!", oops, probed the two hot leads. I woulda thought that woulda resulted in a flash and sparks. I think in the past that woulda been my indicator that i had done something wrong (as in the wire touching the case). If there was a bright flash and sparks then I knew i must've done something wrong.
Wow. So again, a BIG thanks Don. Whew!
b.w.

Path: finder4.readnews.com!fnd01.iad01.newshosting.com!textbe01-ams!hwmnpeer02.ams!hw-filter.ams!hwmnpeer03.ams!hwmedia!news.highwinds-media.com!feeder.news-service.com!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.n-ix.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!news01.roc.ny.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: electric motor forward/reverse wiring? Lines: 104 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
X-Complaints-To: snipped-for-privacy@frontiernet.net X-Trace: 52616e646f6d49564905afb1fe6043e9e75be528da7a78a38daaca11eaf138d5da4f56f5eccc8f8563ba650351566bea6df63113fccaa2ac75b3d239b2371194e0973c3069e3b356e1b50b7d4f2a6e5dca98091693999c2ea6ce452a0368f00871e28db1ec2181dec8ff07364a1bb4c5 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward ALL headers so that we may process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:04:24 UTC Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:04:24 GMT Xref: finder4.readnews.com rec.crafts.metalworking:211628 X-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 07:38:57 MST (textbe01-ams)
Hi Don, Thanks again for your patience.

I assumed I was. Today I went out, plugged it in, flipped the switch and the dang thing strarted right up. Did it a couple more times and it started, then it started NOT starting. I probed the two lines in and one of them was dead. Probed it at the outlet and one was dead there too. Reset teh breaker and both were hot. Started the motor and started up, kept trying and it would start sometimes and wouldn't others. Probed teh wires again and one was dead again. Reset the breaker, started to realize that it was the breaker that was tripping. Thought it was internal problem with the motor. Finally noticed (to my great embarrassment) one of the hot lines going into the motor was touching the case. i had stripped just a LITTLE too much insulation off one wire and (to my great embarrassment) one of the hot wires was just barely touching the case, and of course, tripping the breaker each time i flipped the drum switch. eeek. Guess it's a good thing i had wired up the ground this time huh? So, now it starts but not 100% reliably. I guess that'll have to be something I'm going to have to live with. Seems to start right up like maybe 85% of the time, sometimes it won't start at all, some times it starts jerkingly. Sorry to have caused you to type all the below <cringe>. Thanks very much for your patience. It sure has been a learning experience for me. It is fantastic to see this motor running there clamped to my workbench. It was fun to probe the wires in the switch. I was surprised to see, as you say below, one of the wires was "...close to zero.". Woulda figured it would either be 120 or ZERO. I assumed that must be juice remaining in the capacitor huh? I was probing, getting either 120 or zero and one time i got 220 and was like "wha' da frig?!", oops, probed the two hot leads. I woulda thought that woulda resulted in a flash and sparks. I think in the past that woulda been my indicator that i had done something wrong (as in the wire touching the case). If there was a bright flash and sparks then I knew i must've done something wrong.
Wow. So again, a BIG thanks Don. Whew!
b.w.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.