Food for thought

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The
University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior. "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
From Bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:
Population of counties won by:
Gore7 million Bush3 million
Square miles of land won by:
GoreX0,000 Bush=2,2427,000
States won by:
Gore
Bush)
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore.2 Bush=2.1
Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..." Olson believes the U.S.is now somewhere between the "apathy" and "complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
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in
Athenian
that
that
most
will
a
As long as this is food for thought, think about this: Alexander Tytler (not "Tyler"; Gunner has used this quote with the same misspelling, so you both probably got it from the same bogus source) was a professor of ancient Greek history, and the last democracy he knew anything about was 2,000 years old. Nevertheless, there is no record that he ever wrote those words. People have done complete searches of his known writings and haven't come up with it. According to a guy named Mike Powell, who did a complete textual search and who is quoted by Snopes, "In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote." See Snopes for details. Powell provides a link to an online text of Tytler's best known book on the subject of government, if you're really ambitious.

of
From
This never happened. Ever. Try to find an example if you wish.

Bush got all the stinking desert. <g>

There are 50 states, not 48. In fact, Bush won 30, Gore won 20.

Wrong. The numbers were cooked up out of thin air. Here are the actual numbers: Gore: 6.5; Bush: 4.1. That fits with the stinking desert comment above. The shots in Bush country are taken over longer distances, on the average. <g>

Olson never said it. Again, from Snopes: "Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter."
Congratulations, Harold, you've just perpetuated a bunch of utter nonsense brought to you by the Conservative Minister of Disinformation. <g>
Ed Huntress
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What about this- "----- THIS WILL OPEN YOUR EYES. By Paul Harvey -
Conveniently Forgotten Facts
Back in 1969 a group of Black Panthers decided that a fellow black panther named... Alex Rackley needed to die. Rackley was suspected of disloyalty. Rackley was first tied to a chair. Once safely immobilized, his friends tortured him for hours by, among other things, pouring boiling water on him.
When they got tired of torturing Rackley, Black Panther member, Warren Kimbo took Rackley outside and put a bullet in his head. Rackley's body was later found floating in a river about 25 miles north of New Haven, Conn.
Perhaps at this point you're curious as to what happened to these Black Panthers.
In 1977, that's only eight years later, only one of the killers was still in jail. The shooter, Warren Kimbro, managed to get a scholarship to Harvard, and became good friends with none other than Al Gore. He later became an assistant dean at Eastern Connecticut State College. Isn't that something?
As a '60s radical you can pump a bullet into someone's head, and a few years later, in the same state, you can become an assistant college dean! Only in America!
Erica Huggins was the lady who served the Panthers by boiling the water for Mr. Rackley's torture. Some years later Ms. Huggins was elected to a California School Board.
How in the world do you think these killers got off so easy? Maybe it was in some part due to the efforts of two people who came to the defense of the Panthers. These two people actually went so far as to shut down Yale University with demonstrations in defense of the accused Black Panthers during their trial.
One of these people was none other than Bill Lan Lee. Mr. Lee, or Mr. Lan Lee, as the case may be, isn't a college dean. He isn't a member of a California School Board. He is now head of the US Justice Department's Civil Rights Division, appointed by none other than Bill Clinton.
O.K., so who was the other Panther defender?
Is this other notable Panther defender now a school board member? Is this other Panther apologist now an assistant college dean? No, neither!
The other Panther defender was, like Lee, a radical law student at Yale University at the time. She is now known as The "smartest woman in the world."
She is none other than the Democratic senator from the State of New York----our former First Lady, the incredible Hillary Rodham Clinton.
And now, as Paul Harvey said; You know "the rest of the story". "
D.
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Capt.Doug wrote:

<snipped many lines of unadulterated bullshit>
This, like 99% of all the so-called "facts" about various political figures floating around the net, is utter bullshit. The people who broadcast these so called "facts" are relying on the majority of the people being too damned illiterate and/or lazy to research the truth for themselves. Check the following link if you have any real interest in the facts, but beware - you might have to actually read and comprehend many paragraphs of multi-syllable words...
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/panthers.htm
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 12:56:13 -0600, Bob Robinson

Thats the first time Ive seen Snopes put out a pro-Clinton opinon piece. Apologetic, spun as much as the original document.
Snopes just dropped a notch or two in my opinion, on presentation alone.
Gunner
"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
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Man, they'll be crushed when they hear that. <g!>
It looked like frustration to me. It looked like they were a little fed up. I remember when most of the b.s. was coming from the left, back in the days of the underground press and so on. You could count on them coming up with screamers on a regular basis. In college, I used to write editorials about how the country's youth was floating on a sea of left-wing bullshit.
Now it seems to be 90% right-wing bullshit. Seriously, there's hardly enough left-wing dissembly here to maintain my reputation as an antagonist of both extremes. <g> Am I off-base, or aren't almost all of the bogus quotes, rigged numbers, and re-arranged history coming from the right? It certainly seems so. They seem to have jumped on the idea that their own puerile ideas will carry more weight if they lie and claim that someone more reputable said them.
Has anyone ever checked Snopes to see what percentage of the bogus political stuff is right-wing in origin, versus left-wing? It would be interesting to check it out.
--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:23:46 +0000, Ed Huntress wrote:

I guess every group has its lunatic fringe element. The Conservatives have Rush Limbaugh, the Liberals have Bill Maher, and metalworkers have Al Babin. Its a mistake to judge a group by its loons, but they are always so loud, so shrill, and so extreme that they tend to drown out the more sane and reasonable members of the groups that they appear to represent. This is why I was only half-joking when I said that the often decried 'liberal- controlled media' sponsors conservative talk radio in order to discredit conservatives.
I suspect very strongly that if someone were to do an unbiased study, it would be found that the incidences of corruption and deception among politicians throughout this country's history would be largely evenly distributed across every party. The same would be true of the amount of bullshit spewed by every group's lunatic fringe. Of course, the lunatic fringe would have none of that, and would immediately descend into nit- picking arguments over *which kinds* of corruption and deception are worse than others (and naturally the other side's indiscretions would always be more egregious than their own side's).
--
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that disturb and ruin my work ..., so that I shall be able to cleanse
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Haha! Oh, man, those guys will cook up anything to smear Hillary. Did you know she was actually the Boston Strangler? <g>
Ed Huntress
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says...

You never heard of Bill the Ripper, eh?
No, it's true. Really. Karl Rove told me.
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com =================================================
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It was Bill the Zipper.............
Erich
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says...

Heh. Just when you think you have a snappy line, somebody comes along and trumps it all to hell.
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com =================================================
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:00:14 GMT, "Ed Huntress"

Perhaps in the minutia, but in context, the post was largely correct.
Can you Ed, give me an example of a country based on democracy, that has remained unchanged politcally for more than 200 yrs?
Try hard <G>
Gunner
"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
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nonsense
The minutia?? You mean, like they never actually said it? Holy cow, Gunner. You've been 'way out on patrol too long.

Hell no. That's strictly for monarchies, theocracies, and hereditary dictatorships.
Ed Huntress
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says...

Hmm, then all that other stuff that Snopes says is complete horseshit, it actually 'mostly correct?' I think somebody has a bad case of situational ethics here. Like, 'if it supports my conclusions, it's gotta be right.'
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com =================================================
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:25:02 GMT, "Ed Huntress"

The Bush counties do have a lower homicide rate than the Algor counties etc etc. That sort of minutia.

So that part is true also then?
<G>

Gunner
"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem. To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized, merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
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Gunner.
On the other hand, the Bush counties have a much higher rate of self-inflicted wounds. <g>
That's minutia, all right. How about the townships? Boroughs?

What part? That isn't what the idiot said.
Ed Huntress
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Gunner wrote:
[massive deletia]

The United States is not a true democracy - it was never intended to be and never has been. It's an oligarchy and quite a few oligarchies have lasted longer than 200 years.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
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Technically it is a republic. The prototype republic was ancient Rome, which lasted as a republic for some 400 years before succumbing to a military coup.
Gary
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Gary Coffman wrote:

As you note, technically, the US is a republic; even more technically, the US is an oligarchic republic.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
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wrote:

Ah, I usually stay out of the "democracy/republic" debates, but this one is too blatant. A republic and an oligarchy are exact opposites.
A republic is a government run for the benefit of the people. The common definition used today, that it's a representative government with elected representatives, actually is a subspecies of "republic," and, even so, it may not function as a republic. That's because the determining factor of a republic is whether it serves the interest of the people. That's what Franklin meant when he said the Constitutional Convention gave us "a republic, if [we] can keep it."
An oligarchy, by definition, is government by a small group that governs for selfish purposes. It doesn't govern for the interest of the people.
Ed Huntress
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