Hydraulics help please

I have a 90 something Honda H5013 4wd tractor. It's a small tractor as tractors go but it is a real workhorse. Anyway, it has a 4 foot
dozer blade that has 3 positions, left, right, and center. I would love to be able to swivel the blade using hydraulics, because then the angle would then be whatever I want and I wouldn't need to get off the tractor to adjust the thing. So I started thinking about getting power from the tractor hydraulics and it would just plain be better and easier to have a separate hydraulic system for the front blade. I think a power steering pump with built in reservoir would be perfect. If it will work. The rotation of the pump and the front PTO shaft would need to be the same as would the RPM, which is 2650 tops on the Honda. I want to use a double acting cylinder. And I think an open center valve the type of valve that should be used but I don't know. The valve must allow the hydraulic fluid to flow back to the pump when the spool is centered while at the same time holding the cylinder in position. One advantage of using the front PTO is that it is easily engaged and disengaged so that the pump won't need to run all the time. The PTO can be engaged or disengaged at any time just by moving a lever. Has anyone here done this? Do power steering pumps spin as fast as 2600 RPM? I think the one in my Toyota truck does. Is an open center valve the right one? Thanks, Eric
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:33:49 -0700 snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:
<snip>

I doubt that 2600 rpm would be a problem. The older vehicles I've had would spin faster than that.
Something else to consider would be using an actuator. Something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-4-6-8-10-12-Stroke-Electric-Linear-Actuator-Motor-Heavy-Duty-225lb-DC12V/162672168058
Johnny Buckets used to use something similar for lifting their add-on buckets.
http://www.johnnyproducts.com/
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Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:33:49 -0700, etpm wrote:

There are all kinds of hydraulic valves, you need an open-center valve that holds the load, that should be a standard type.
The double-acting cylinder displaces different amounts of oil when the rod is in or out, you need to have a supply reservoir able to hold at least that much fluid. Also, you need a pressure relief valve, although most power steering pumps will have that built in.
Jon
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wrote:

Thanks Jon. I was looking at the tractor just after posting the first message and thinking about the double acting cylinder pressure difference but not the volume difference. Now I'm thinking that two single acting cylinders would be better. There is room for two cylinders I imagine the valving would be the same as for just one double acting cylinder. Eric
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:41:23 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

Correct on both counts.
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I used single acting porta-power type cylinders for the boom and bucket lifts on the loader I built for my garden tractor, since they allowed the bucket to follow the ground when clearing snow. I simply plumbed the second ports of both valve sections to a manifold in the return line.
Snow plows use two single-acting cylinders to swing the blade. You could look at their service manuals for the valving. http://library.fisherplows.com/fisherplows/pdffiles/21935_120098.pdf
I had to figure out how to repair and install one that had been crudely ripped out of the old truck.
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wrote:

Using 2 double acting cyls solves the first problem - or even just 2 single acting cyls.
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Hydraulics for a blade have to have a large steering piston cylinder. Run one forward and one backwards and you have push pull on the blade.
Won't you need thousands of pounds on that cylinder ?
I have a Grapper that has 6000 psi crushing power. Something like those pistons would be needed. The cylinders are large.
Martin
On 9/28/2018 12:33 PM, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

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The usual continuous force on the blade is the drawbar pull of the tractor. I had to put on ag tires with chains to have enough traction to plow on worst case snow and ice, so their traction on solid dry ground became the maximum, instead of traction of rubber on asphalt.
I sized the cylinder geometry for 1000 PSI oil pressure but the frame for at least 2500 per side. When I turned it up to 1600 PSI to get unstuck from a snowbank the front tires blew. I think the front axles would have gone next. The extra front wheel loading also damaged the steering sector gear and I had to machine a new one.
The control valve came with a fixed overpressure relief. I made an adjustable replacement and added a gauge to monitor it.
I designed my bucket loader for the ground-level impact that would raise the rear wheels, and it suvived one such hit on a stone step with only a slightly bent pivot pin, which was the only significant structural wear after 3 winters of fairly hard use. The PTO to pump belt drive was more of a problem.
When you hit something the hydraulic pressure can spike very high because the centered control valve isolates the impacted cylinder from the pump pressure relief valve. On my loader the lowered bucket rests against wood crush blocks on a stronger front bumper. Some commercial plow blades have a spring-loaded lower edge.
-jsw
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 23:14:43 -0500

It's only a 1000 lb tractor. Plus or minus some possibly added weights. See:
http://www.tractordata.com/lawn-tractors/000/6/6/667-honda-h5013.html
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Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
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wrote:

I went to Northern for the hydraulic parts I couldn't find cheap locally, then to Bailey when Northern reduced their selections. The local Parker Store is competitive on small fittings. http://www.baileyhydraulics.com/
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wrote:

The 8 foot Frink on my old Ramcharger ised 2 cyls of less than 2 inches diameter. Depends on the geometry how much force you need. If the cyl has 1 foot of movement it takes half the forcr it takes if the cyl only has 6 inches of movement to turn the blade the same amount.
I could "walk" the truck out of some pretty deep snow using only the blade turnong cyls and a shovel.
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 23:14:43 -0500, Martin Eastburn

The blade really doesn't need much force to turn it. It is meant to be elevated and then a pin is pulled by hand and the blade is swiveled about a pivot and then the pin is put back in place. To resist the force against the blade though is different. I think that a valve that holds the cylinder in position will be able to resist any force the tractor will be able achieve. So I'm thinking a 1.25 cylinder with a 5/8" or 3/4" rod will work fine. The power steering pump will be able to provide just over 1000 PSI. Coupled with a 1.25" piston the pushing force will be about 1220 pounds. Eric

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On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 14:46:03 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

Not at all. If it has a pin it is MANUALLY adjusted. Hydraulic blade has NO PIN. I've worked on plenty of them - on both tractors and trucks - both manual and hydraulic. What good is a hydraulic unit if you can't adjust it without leaving the driver's seat?????

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<SNIP>

Greetings Clare, Somehow the issue is getting confused. The blade is manual. I want to put hydraulics on it. So that I don't have to get off of the tractor to swivel the blade. Speaking with a neighbor about this he mentioned that he has a GM pump, the kind I want to use because of the integral rteservoir. He said it sping CW. Which is perfect because facing the front PTO shaft it spins CCW. Now all I gotta do is find two cheap cylinders that have at least a 1.125 bore and 6 inches travel. I think a 5/8" rod would be fine. I can use double acting or single acting. Eric
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On Mon, 01 Oct 2018 09:49:22 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

Well, using 2 opposing cyls eliminates the reservoir capaciy issue, cecause the total volume of the system never changes. Here in Canada I'd head to Princess Auto for cyls - inthe USA Northern Hydraulics wouild likely be the choice. TSC would be another choice both sides of the border - or Orchard Supply in the USA.
Lots of fairly affordable sources. Err on the side of 2 big rather than 2 small. Remove the latching pin You want a single acting cyl with the shaft as close to the bore size as possible.
Amazon has cyls for Meyers plows for $81 each - (Amazon.com product link shortened) 1.5" shaft in 1.625 bore, I believe.
If "I" was doing it I'd pass on the PS pump and get an electric snowplow power unit complete with the proper solenoid valves.
Something like https://www.buyersproducts.com/product/4-way3-way-dc-power-unit-electric-controls-1319
YouWILL want a crossover relief valve in the system to protect from damage when (not if) you catch the end of the blade on something that won't yield.
Systemshould be available used for about $200 with some scrounging
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wrote:

If you can't fit snowplow cylinders into the available space, you could try these: https://www.ebay.com/bhp/4-ton-porta-power
I used two second-hand 10 ton rams to raise the boom and two 4 tonners to lift the bucket. They cost me $70 total, plus new seals.
Use only hydraulic pipe fittings, plumbing fittings aren't strong enough. A "swivel" hose end fits male NPT threads as long as the ID is concentrically countersunk.
Do you read my posts or am I wasting my time trying to help?
-jsw
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wrote:

I was talking to my son about the hydraulic thing, bouncing ideas off of him. He said I should put quick disconnects on the hoses that go to the cylinders. That way if I ever want hydraulic power for something in the future I'll have it. That settled it. I hadn't thought that far. No electric actuators for me. Eric
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On Mon, 01 Oct 2018 15:18:15 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

A good friend is a very accomplished fabricator. He has built the loaders for all of his tractors over the last 40 years, built his own forage wagons, and designed and built a hydraulic self unloading bunk feeder - with a Kubota diesel powering the hydraulics - using orbital motors for wheel drive and beater, and cyls for the unloading ram.
He just finished a dump trailer for his ATVs - as well as a grader unit that is powered by the same 12 volt electro-hydraulic unit. He has other plans for that electro-hydraulic unit on the ATV too.
During the last 10 years before retirement he worked off-farm for a company building "honey wagons" - including engineering and prototyping the 3 axle suspension on the big trailer unit, and a lot of work on their truck-mounts
Totally self taught dairy farmer - - -
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On Mon, 01 Oct 2018 15:18:15 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

The Snpwbear plows are built about 30 Km down the road in Cambridge Ontario (referenced re using actuators instead of winch for raising the plow)
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